Rhythm Question

Azeeza · 11-02-2007, 10:19 PM

This may be a silly question, but I've got to ask.

Do musicans play the Arabic drum patterns the same way as a dancer plays zills? Is there any commonality between the two besides the rhythms?

This has been on my mind for a while now.

Thanks,

Azeeza

chryssanthi sahar · 11-03-2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azeeza

This may be a silly question, but I've got to ask.

Do musicans play the Arabic drum patterns the same way as a dancer plays zills?

No. The musicians play different patterns, depending on the kind of drum they play. The solo tabla (darbuka) plays quite complicated patterns, of course never loosing the basic rhythm, while the bass tabla (second drum) plays the basic rhythm. As about the zills, I don't know according to what system you learned but with the Arabian system you play only dumtakedum variations. You never play the basic rhythm with the zills, when you are a dancer (in the Arabian system), because it is too difficult to play that and dance at the same time. Musicians can play the basic rhythm with the zills and also vary in a different way than dancers.

janaki · 11-03-2007, 05:21 AM

I think it s brilliant educational question Azeeza!!!!

1. Drummmers produce more sounds than the zills.

2. You don't need to play rythms with zills. Playing a pattern will work to any music. What I mean to say is, for example saidi rhythm, on the drum you play dum tek dum dum tek (with may layers of sounds on top of it). But with zills you can play pattern/s like singles, doubles, 3s, 4s, 5s, 7s and or combinations of these.

Jane · 11-03-2007, 07:14 AM

I learned zill patterns just like basic doumbek rythms. I layer different zill paterns with the same beats per measure as the drum rhythm. I don't do this with new drummers, it messes them up badly, or with complex music. Is this is an American belly dancer thing?

chryssanthi sahar · 11-05-2007, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane

I learned zill patterns just like basic doumbek rythms. I layer different zill paterns with the same beats per measure as the drum rhythm. I don't do this with new drummers, it messes them up badly, or with complex music. Is this is an American belly dancer thing?

Yes. That's why it is actually more difficult to play.

Aisha Azar · 11-05-2007, 01:11 PM

Dear Azeeza,
Dancers play finger cymbals and they too must learn proper rhythms to keep in the feeling of Arab music.
Now, the finger cymbal player in a band must have as much knowledge of his instrument as any other percussion instrument player. They follow the same rhythms and can get almost as complex in their playing as any drummer. For an example of this, get The Ahlan Wa Sahnan video that features Esmahan and her cymbal player doing a cymbal solo. I think its 2004, but I could be wrong on the number.
Regards,
A'isha

Bellydeluxe · 11-11-2007, 08:47 PM

That's a very interesting question !
I use different sounds on my zills (yes they indeed have different sounds depending on how you hold them and "stike" them together (sorry if the verb is wrong but I am French

)

It's far more interesting to create your own rhythm patterns depending on what you dance (mouvements/step combinations) and also the melody of the piece.

I've developped a whole series of exercises and combinations to create your own patterns. No one has done that before and I have to say that I watched many videos and seen many players...although (I don't know about America) in Europe zills players are scarce and not often very good. But with the growing interest of Tribal (yes I know we're always 20 years behind...at least !) people are more willing to learn...but the next problem is to find someone who can teach them properly : as an instrument played by a dancer (not as an instrument played by a musician that is to say sitting or standing still)

Azeeza · 11-13-2007, 04:07 PM

Help!

My current teacher is teaching how to play finger cymbals and it is not the way I've been playing them for almost 10 years.

She wants me to have one dominant hand and I'm ambidextrous. I use both hands equally.

None of my previous teachers taught finger cymbal playing so I relied on video. I have one video in which the dancer is adamant about using both hands equally, so I did some research asking around about the differences and the pros and cons of using one dominant hand verses both hands and no one could tell me a difference. So, I continued to learn with both hands.

Now, my current teacher is trying to get me to change my habit of playing with both hands and I'm finding it extremely difficult and I figure what isn't quite broken yet shouldn't need to be fixed. Although, I did learn about one handicap a few months ago that I have now due to using both hands. I can't close the doums on the dominant hand if I use both hands to play finger cymbals. I only forsee one problem in the future and that is if I am in a group dance and we have to close the doums, but I've never been in this situation before and this brings up a whole other can of worms, such as differences in holding the finger cymbals and playing them. Teachers have differences in that as well.

So, this brings me to drumming. I noticed with drumming patterns, there is a dominant hand, the right hand. With the baladi rhythm, the doums are played with the right hand and with a right hand dominant dancer playing finger cymbals, the doums are also played with the right hand.

What if a drummer is left hand dominant? Can the drummer play the doums with the left hand? And what if a dancer is left hand dominant, can the dancer play finger cymbal doums with the left hand? And what if both the drummer and dancer are ambidextrous? Can both the drum and finger cymbals be played with both hands?

Azeeza

Aisha Azar · 11-13-2007, 04:22 PM

Dear Azeeza,
The rhythm itself determines what hand is dominant. And, if you are left handed, then that is reversed. For example if you are playing longa ( galloping rhythm), and are right handed, then the right hand is dominant both in number of times the cymbal is struck and in having the dominant sound. But, for example if you are playing, say, Saudi syncopated, and you are right handed, then the right cymbal will make the dominant sound while the left cymbal is struck more. I think teachers need to explain that all this stuff about dominant hand, etc, depends entirely on what rhythm is being played, and will reverse hands for left handed people.
Regards,
A;isha

Azeeza · 11-13-2007, 05:54 PM

Another thought.

If a dancer knows Arabic rhythm patterns, then there shouldn't be a handicap with being ambidextrous. All the doums get hit with emphasis and the teks and cas are softer.

Would that work?

Azeeza

11-02-2007, 10:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Azeeza Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 829	Rhythm Question This may be a silly question, but I've got to ask. Do musicans play the Arabic drum patterns the same way as a dancer plays zills? Is there any commonality between the two besides the rhythms? This has been on my mind for a while now. Thanks, Azeeza

11-03-2007, 05:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
janaki V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: hong kong Posts: 1,211	I think it s brilliant educational question Azeeza!!!! 1. Drummmers produce more sounds than the zills. 2. You don't need to play rythms with zills. Playing a pattern will work to any music. What I mean to say is, for example saidi rhythm, on the drum you play dum tek dum dum tek (with may layers of sounds on top of it). But with zills you can play pattern/s like singles, doubles, 3s, 4s, 5s, 7s and or combinations of these. Last edited by janaki; 11-03-2007 at 01:22 PM.

11-05-2007, 01:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Sagat Dear Azeeza, Dancers play finger cymbals and they too must learn proper rhythms to keep in the feeling of Arab music. Now, the finger cymbal player in a band must have as much knowledge of his instrument as any other percussion instrument player. They follow the same rhythms and can get almost as complex in their playing as any drummer. For an example of this, get The Ahlan Wa Sahnan video that features Esmahan and her cymbal player doing a cymbal solo. I think its 2004, but I could be wrong on the number. Regards, A'isha

11-13-2007, 04:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Sagat, etc Dear Azeeza, The rhythm itself determines what hand is dominant. And, if you are left handed, then that is reversed. For example if you are playing longa ( galloping rhythm), and are right handed, then the right hand is dominant both in number of times the cymbal is struck and in having the dominant sound. But, for example if you are playing, say, Saudi syncopated, and you are right handed, then the right cymbal will make the dominant sound while the left cymbal is struck more. I think teachers need to explain that all this stuff about dominant hand, etc, depends entirely on what rhythm is being played, and will reverse hands for left handed people. Regards, A;isha

11-03-2007, 07:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jane Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 412	I learned zill patterns just like basic doumbek rythms. I layer different zill paterns with the same beats per measure as the drum rhythm. I don't do this with new drummers, it messes them up badly, or with complex music. Is this is an American belly dancer thing?

11-11-2007, 08:47 PM	#7 (permalink)
Bellydeluxe Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Paris/London Posts: 50	That's a very interesting question ! I use different sounds on my zills (yes they indeed have different sounds depending on how you hold them and "stike" them together (sorry if the verb is wrong but I am French ) It's far more interesting to create your own rhythm patterns depending on what you dance (mouvements/step combinations) and also the melody of the piece. I've developped a whole series of exercises and combinations to create your own patterns. No one has done that before and I have to say that I watched many videos and seen many players...although (I don't know about America) in Europe zills players are scarce and not often very good. But with the growing interest of Tribal (yes I know we're always 20 years behind...at least !) people are more willing to learn...but the next problem is to find someone who can teach them properly : as an instrument played by a dancer (not as an instrument played by a musician that is to say sitting or standing still)

11-13-2007, 04:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
Azeeza Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 829	Help! My current teacher is teaching how to play finger cymbals and it is not the way I've been playing them for almost 10 years. She wants me to have one dominant hand and I'm ambidextrous. I use both hands equally. None of my previous teachers taught finger cymbal playing so I relied on video. I have one video in which the dancer is adamant about using both hands equally, so I did some research asking around about the differences and the pros and cons of using one dominant hand verses both hands and no one could tell me a difference. So, I continued to learn with both hands. Now, my current teacher is trying to get me to change my habit of playing with both hands and I'm finding it extremely difficult and I figure what isn't quite broken yet shouldn't need to be fixed. Although, I did learn about one handicap a few months ago that I have now due to using both hands. I can't close the doums on the dominant hand if I use both hands to play finger cymbals. I only forsee one problem in the future and that is if I am in a group dance and we have to close the doums, but I've never been in this situation before and this brings up a whole other can of worms, such as differences in holding the finger cymbals and playing them. Teachers have differences in that as well. So, this brings me to drumming. I noticed with drumming patterns, there is a dominant hand, the right hand. With the baladi rhythm, the doums are played with the right hand and with a right hand dominant dancer playing finger cymbals, the doums are also played with the right hand. What if a drummer is left hand dominant? Can the drummer play the doums with the left hand? And what if a dancer is left hand dominant, can the dancer play finger cymbal doums with the left hand? And what if both the drummer and dancer are ambidextrous? Can both the drum and finger cymbals be played with both hands? Azeeza

11-13-2007, 05:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
Azeeza Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 829	Another thought. If a dancer knows Arabic rhythm patterns, then there shouldn't be a handicap with being ambidextrous. All the doums get hit with emphasis and the teks and cas are softer. Would that work? Azeeza