The Great Male Belly Dancer Dust-up: Masculinity Defined - Page 3

Zorba · 10-20-2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

I'm with Tarik on this one. I find it really distracting not to know. For me as an audience member it's totally the wrong way to go if a dancer is trying to convey messages "beyond" the male/female thing. Does that make sense? When someone goes for truly androgynous I'm wondering a) is that a man or a woman (draws the attention like an impending costume disaster), and b) why does he/she dress that way? To make me go

, to make some sort of point about his/her sexuality (that I'm not interested in)?

Maybe s/he dresses that way simply to be beautiful? Why would it necessarily be a "point about his/her sexuality"? For that matter, why are people so hung up on other people's sexuality (and gender)? I honestly don't understand, I seldom pay attention...

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I don't know... What it absolutely doesn't succeed in doing (for me) is to write the male/female out of the equation and let the art be experienced as just human. On the contrary, it just accentuates it, like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.

It goes without saying that this is what I'm striving for - and what I like to see.

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I've seen men dancing very masculine and very feminine styles, and like both, as long as it's good dancing. Conveying a feeling is what it's all about IMHO and neither men nor women have a monopoly on particular feelings.

Thank you for saying this - although I (MY OPINION) don't believe in "masculine" or "feminine" styles - only in "Belly Dance" which is very beautiful, graceful, and spiritual. As I say on my WebSite somewhere: "There's no such thing as 'Tall' vs 'Short' style, or 'Skinny' vs 'Fat' style although these types of dancers do tend to dance slightly differently from each other. Why all this emphasis on 'Masculine' vs. 'Feminine' style. I just don't buy it."

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Having said that, some audiences are going to have problems with the feelings some dancers want to convey... I'd have thought it was part of a professional's job to gauge the audience/venue and choose something appropriate.

Yes to the first, qualified yes to the second. "Appropriate" is a very mis-used and over-used word.

See my reply to Tarik, coming up next!

Zorba · 10-20-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Anisetepth makes a great point. Not that I don't understand where your coming from Zorba, I do and just for the record, I've seen your clips and I don't find you effeminate, even though I would never choose to wear some of your accessories.

Thanx Tarik. But I'd love to know WHY you don't find me "effeminate" (And thanx for NOT laughing at my meager dance skills!). Your reaction is typical of most - yet again, I BREAK ALL THE RULES!

There's something else going on here besides mere appearance, and I don't know what it is. Is it my attitude? Is it my facial hair? I have a sneaking suspicion that it might, emphasis on "might", be that I don't bring my sexuality to the stage - for the simple matter that I don't care about sexuality. Don't get me wrong - I'm a "normal" guy, I enjoy a "roll in the hay" with my wife as much as the next guy - but I don't define myself by my sexuality like most guys (and gals?) seem to do.

I don't know.

Or perhaps its the exact opposite - I *do* bring my sexuality to the stage and its obvious.

What do you think?

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I do wear a minimal amount of makeup to hide my shaving scars, eyebrow liner to define my mustach and beard and liner to define my eyes. I use cosmetics to define my male features, not make a gender statement. To me that's another battle. For you this is an issue that's central to your life, on and off stage, for others, I feel they do it to broadcast their sexual preference. I feel that if a guy is effeminate, that's just who he is an you can see it. Dressing up is like putting hot sauce on chilli peppers, not neccessary.
I think they should strive to be known as a great artist, not that gay guy that belly dances.

You're not quite on the gold here (in reference to me). I use cosmetics to look exotic and beautiful. Not to make a statement of any kind other than "I'm beautiful too". I do agree with your last sentence here - for myself I want to be known as an excellent dancer (perhaps some day?

) who "just happens to be male" as opposed to a "male who Belly Dances". I consider myself a dancer first, a male second (or even third).

Perhaps my "situation" is that I don't self identify as a male, or a "straight male", or as what I do at work, etc. Its part of my makeup yes, but isn't central to my self identity.

I'm just "me" for whatever that's worth. I hope THAT is what I take to the stage - and thus come across as so-called "masculine"?.

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On the issue of evening the gender playing field, there is another reason why I prefeer to see a guy present a masquline and that is because I think its high time that the entertainment industry as a whole acknowledge women. I mean think about it, everything is geared to what men find asthetically pleasing. Look at all the music videos, magazine adds. Even our dance was designed with a guys idea of the ideal woman in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating feminine beauty, but it why can't women go to a show and see beautiful guys dancing for their viewing pleasure, who really know how to dance and are not strippers? Guys have been able to appreciate women's beauty in an artistic context, why should women be able to enjoy the same privilidge, (sp?)?

YES!

This is exactly my point - let the gals enjoy BEAUTIFUL men!

That's what I (try to) do - and the gals seem to love me, makeup and all! This is NOT typical male bragging - I have to practically beat the women off with a stick at times. I stay backstage with my dance sisters where I'm safe when I'm not dancing, I've had too many run ins with what I call "Feral Women" who appreciate me a little too much. I find it annoying, my wife thinks its amusing. She tells me tidbits she overhears in the audience.

This is an interesting conversation - and like all "good" conversations, it provokes thought on my part - and thus helps me understand not only others, but MYSELF as well.

Keep it coming!

{BOW HERE}

Zorba · 10-20-2006, 08:56 PM

Of course I have one other thought that might relate to this thread.

I've had similar discussions on this subject many times, and a couple of times with Jim Boz - who is a real sweetheart of a guy. He too, upon seeing me dance, said "You're not nearly as Nelly as I thought you'd be (given our conversations)". Yet my style is NOTHING like Jim's.

I do say that I'm "masculine" because I'm a guy - but I reserve the right to define my OWN "masculinity", not someone else's. You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.

I found an on-line discussion about the two of us (Zorba & Tarik) by some clueless dweebs who obviously can't think outside the box they're in. They called Tarik "Disgusting", and were equally dissing of myself.

Fine. You don't like me? There's plenty of people who do.

BTW, Tarik, your costume on your splash page is VERY beautiful. Kudos to you.

Aniseteph · 10-20-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

... Why all this emphasis on 'Masculine' vs. 'Feminine' style. I just don't buy it."

Oh I KNEW when I wrote "masculine & feminine styles" it would come back and bite me! I was trying to cut down on the verbiage and it was a daft thing to cut corners on given the title of this thread. Duh!

I meant it with inverted commas, shorthand for the extreme stereotypes if you like. Using horrible stereotypes to avoid naming names and categorising anyone from a few YouTube clips, there are those who look like they would whisk a girl away to their bedouin tent on their camel (in your dreams if you got lucky and were 20 yrs younger

, spot the cheesy Orientalist fantasy), and those who, er, wouldn't. I like both, but for an audience of Joe/Jane Publics the former style is going to be more acceptable. For example I think Khaled Mahmood is amazing - and the times I've seen him dance he's been doing a style which -oh dear, trying to avoid the "feminine" word - which a lot of people are more comfortable seeing a woman do. I was talking to people afterwards and you could see that some of them, especially non-bellydance scene blokes but some of my classmates too, find it awkward to deal with. Yes, their problem up to a point, but if a professional male dancer was booked for an event where they were the audience, something towards the Aladdin/Sheikh end of the scale might go across better than something delicate with floaty veils and sequins. It's no different to a female dancer tailoring her look/act to the audience - what goes over well for a late night club or a hen night might not play as well in a retirement home (depends on the residents though!

)

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Maybe s/he dresses that way simply to be beautiful? Why would it necessarily be a "point about his/her sexuality"?...

If a guy wants to bestrew himself with beaded fringe, sequins and wear a dress to look beautiful, good for him (can't promise not to laugh if it misfires though - I love an Ugly Belly Dance Costume as much as the next girl). It's just that when a man really does look like a woman its distracting for me and I wonder why he's presenting himself like that. Does he feel he has to look like a woman to be beautiful? I don't know... but it's making a point about something. How we present ourselves, when we have a choice, always makes a point about something.

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Or perhaps its the exact opposite - I *do* bring my sexuality to the stage and its obvious.
What do you think?

I think maybe it's that you bring your personality. IMO dancers who can manage to do that (or fake it convincingly? difficult!), male or female, are appealing. Maybe that's why you're plagued by feral women! :eek:

(Oo-er, just had to edit this post for outrageous double-entendres :o )

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 10-21-2006, 12:48 AM

Hey Zorba, "I enjoy a roll in the hay with my wife as much as the next guy" Did you mean to say that?:p

Flipping the script on the Great Masculine Dust-up. I've been reading yours and Tarik's posts, valid points made on both sides. Then I decided, maybe I should try to dance in a masculine style.Ok........it's not working out

Is it because of my body has been bathing in estrogen, or my hip scarf actually has something to hold onto. I really don't know. Of course I'm making light of this, but for me personally I can't define within myself the differences of masculine style dance versus feminine, in a way for it show in my dancing because when I hear the music I just going with the flow.

However, as an audience member, I can perceive subtle nuances that trigger some sub-concious filter,that defines for me the masculine and feminine qualities of the dancer. give me a few days and maybe I can come up with a better definition.
Yasmine

Zorba · 10-23-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

If a guy wants to bestrew himself with beaded fringe, sequins and wear a dress to look beautiful, good for him (can't promise not to laugh if it misfires though - I love an Ugly Belly Dance Costume as much as the next girl). It's just that when a man really does look like a woman its distracting for me and I wonder why he's presenting himself like that. Does he feel he has to look like a woman to be beautiful? I don't know... but it's making a point about something. How we present ourselves, when we have a choice, always makes a point about something.

This is (to my mind), a chicken and egg situation. If a male "looks like a woman" to be beautiful - is it because he's really wanting to look like a woman - or is it because "beauty" is something that has been DENIED him for centuries - so ANYTHING beautiful could be perceived as "feminine". To my mind, it isn't "like a woman" unless it involves biology - ie breasts.

I have yet to see a dress that looks good on the male form. Not saying it doesn't exist - only that I haven't seen it. Dresses are cut for the female form, a male version would have to be made differently.

OTOH, a skirt works just fine on either gender (no biological issues here) - although I haven't worn one for Belly Dance performances - the "know your audience" bit. I was in a gypsy style workshop once where I was chosen to help the instructor demonstrate a "two dancer skirtwork routine" as I was the best in the class at skirtwork (yea, I'm rather proud of that - and I sure was having fun!). My regular instructor is making noises about a gypsy skirt style group choreography - and you can bet I'll be in the middle of it!

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I think maybe it's that you bring your personality. IMO dancers who can manage to do that (or fake it convincingly? difficult!), male or female, are appealing. Maybe that's why you're plagued by feral women! :eek:

Well, I hope that's it. Bringing one's personality/attitude to the stage is what its all about - and what I strive for. I have a long way to go to get good at it though...

Zorba · 10-23-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Hey Zorba, "I enjoy a roll in the hay with my wife as much as the next guy" Did you mean to say that?:p

I'll ignore that...

Quote:

Flipping the script on the Great Masculine Dust-up. I've been reading yours and Tarik's posts, valid points made on both sides. Then I decided, maybe I should try to dance in a masculine style.Ok........it's not working out

Is it because of my body has been bathing in estrogen, or my hip scarf actually has something to hold onto. I really don't know. Of course I'm making light of this, but for me personally I can't define within myself the differences of masculine style dance versus feminine, in a way for it show in my dancing because when I hear the music I just going with the flow.

That's because there is no such thing as "masculine" vs. "Feminine" style - you either dance and "go with the flow" - or you don't. You're either REAL, or you're not. That's what drives me nuts about males who masculinize or "adapt" - what's up with that?

Quote:

However, as an audience member, I can perceive subtle nuances that trigger some sub-concious filter,that defines for me the masculine and feminine qualities of the dancer. give me a few days and maybe I can come up with a better definition.
Yasmine

Good luck - I've been trying to figure this out for years - I know what it is NOT, but not what it IS.

I just happened to see a male Belly Dancer this weekend that I had never seen, nor heard of, before. He had a very John Compton-esque costume. His dance was very nice, no masculinzations, no stupid male tricks, etc. Very smooth, flowing, and graceful. Fantastic, graceful hipwork. I could see a lot of myself in him. If I had to fault him, it would be that he seemed to forget his arms at times - I know this because I do this myself all the time! But that wasn't a style issue.

He looked so good, and so beautiful in his dance because it wasn't some pastiche of some pre-canned concept of "masculinity", but rather was his interpretation of beauty and flowing dance with no artificial additives! He was REAL.

Aisha Azar · 10-23-2006, 07:14 PM

Zorba write,

I have yet to see a dress that looks good on the male form. Not saying it doesn't exist - only that I haven't seen it. Dresses are cut for the female form, a male version would have to be made differently.

Dear Zorba,
I beg to differ!!!!! I think that a Saudi gentleman in his thobe is very masculine. I think that the Saidi farmer in his jelebah is very masculine. Dresses can look damn fine on a man as well as a woman.
When I was young the most fascinating and sexy and masculine people in the world for me were the Watutsi of Africa. Very tall, very black, very lithe men wearing white monkey hair headdresses and skirts that were tight to their bodies. The way they moved was nothing short of the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, whether they were daciing or just walking around. (Nice that I had parents who were into watching travelogues!!). Men in skirts or dress is the norm in many parts of the world, but I think some people just forget that.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 10-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Zorba,
I beg to differ!!!!! I think that a Saudi gentleman in his thobe is very masculine. I think that the Saidi farmer in his jelebah is very masculine. Dresses can look damn fine on a man as well as a woman.
When I was young the most fascinating and sexy and masculine people in the world for me were the Watutsi of Africa. Very tall, very black, very lithe men wearing white monkey hair headdresses and skirts that were tight to their bodies. The way they moved was nothing short of the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, whether they were daciing or just walking around. (Nice that I had parents who were into watching travelogues!!). Men in skirts or dress is the norm in many parts of the world, but I think some people just forget that.
Regards,
A'isha

Uh-oh folks, we've got a problem...

A'isha and I are about to AGREE on something!

I'm not familiar with the Watutsi people cited - but it sounds good to me! I can go along with calling a Thobe, et al a kind of dress. Works for me.

But yes, the rest of the world forgets about men's skirts in much of it. Uh-oh, are you suggesting that culture is relative?!? :eek:

As longtime readers know, I'm partial to skirts myself and wear one of one sort or another daily. As a man. Mostly the famed "Utilikilt", but others as well. You should see me on formal nite on the ANAS cruise...

Shanazel · 10-24-2006, 02:50 PM

Oh, yes, indeed, do let us speak of kilts. I love kilts. I love sporrans, swaying back in forth in time to a man's walk, leading the imagination to other things swaying, knee socks neatly concealing a deadly weapon (pronounced skin du, though I don't recall the Gaelic spelling). Mmmmm. I can tell you more about kilts than any sane person wants to know, but have probably given too much information already.

10-20-2006, 08:56 PM	#23 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	Of course I have one other thought that might relate to this thread. I've had similar discussions on this subject many times, and a couple of times with Jim Boz - who is a real sweetheart of a guy. He too, upon seeing me dance, said "You're not nearly as Nelly as I thought you'd be (given our conversations)". Yet my style is NOTHING like Jim's. I do say that I'm "masculine" because I'm a guy - but I reserve the right to define my OWN "masculinity", not someone else's. You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself. I found an on-line discussion about the two of us (Zorba & Tarik) by some clueless dweebs who obviously can't think outside the box they're in. They called Tarik "Disgusting", and were equally dissing of myself. Fine. You don't like me? There's plenty of people who do. BTW, Tarik, your costume on your splash page is VERY beautiful. Kudos to you. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

10-23-2006, 07:14 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,516	Masculine etc. Zorba write, I have yet to see a dress that looks good on the male form. Not saying it doesn't exist - only that I haven't seen it. Dresses are cut for the female form, a male version would have to be made differently. Dear Zorba, I beg to differ!!!!! I think that a Saudi gentleman in his thobe is very masculine. I think that the Saidi farmer in his jelebah is very masculine. Dresses can look damn fine on a man as well as a woman. When I was young the most fascinating and sexy and masculine people in the world for me were the Watutsi of Africa. Very tall, very black, very lithe men wearing white monkey hair headdresses and skirts that were tight to their bodies. The way they moved was nothing short of the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, whether they were daciing or just walking around. (Nice that I had parents who were into watching travelogues!!). Men in skirts or dress is the norm in many parts of the world, but I think some people just forget that. Regards, A'isha

10-21-2006, 12:48 AM	#25 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,139	Hey Zorba, "I enjoy a roll in the hay with my wife as much as the next guy" Did you mean to say that?:p Flipping the script on the Great Masculine Dust-up. I've been reading yours and Tarik's posts, valid points made on both sides. Then I decided, maybe I should try to dance in a masculine style.Ok........it's not working out Is it because of my body has been bathing in estrogen, or my hip scarf actually has something to hold onto. I really don't know. Of course I'm making light of this, but for me personally I can't define within myself the differences of masculine style dance versus feminine, in a way for it show in my dancing because when I hear the music I just going with the flow. However, as an audience member, I can perceive subtle nuances that trigger some sub-concious filter,that defines for me the masculine and feminine qualities of the dancer. give me a few days and maybe I can come up with a better definition. Yasmine

10-24-2006, 02:50 PM	#30 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	Oh, yes, indeed, do let us speak of kilts. I love kilts. I love sporrans, swaying back in forth in time to a man's walk, leading the imagination to other things swaying, knee socks neatly concealing a deadly weapon (pronounced skin du, though I don't recall the Gaelic spelling). Mmmmm. I can tell you more about kilts than any sane person wants to know, but have probably given too much information already.