The Great Male Belly Dancer Dust-up: Masculinity Defined - Page 2

Tarik Sultan · 10-17-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Yet another clarification...

People are free to make whatever assumptions they like about my sexuality. I don't worry about possible misperceptions (if any) - and trying to compensate for it is one of my arguments - we shouldn't. "All male dancers have to deal with this..." - only if they choose to, only if they choose to...

I think what I was trying to say is that we should strive to be Belly Dancers who just happen to be male, NOT as males who just happen to be Belly Dancers...

Ok, so I'm weird!

Okay, but I still don't know what you mean by trying hard to prove they're masculine. What are these guys doing?

Zorba · 10-17-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Just for the record, I know your not talking about me Zorba, but I do find some of your staements confusing, so I do neede clarification....Now I'll go back and actually read your replies:o

Don't count on them making any more sense than the last time since I obviously wasn't being clear. I also have a bad habit of rambling, which confuses things further. I'll try to keep it short, maybe that'll help keep me from muddying the waters...

As for "Stupid Male Tricks" I see (male) dancers doing.

Athleticism. 1001 different butt "shimmies". Angular posture (consistantly). Ripping their shirt off midway through their performance (!). Coming on stage with veil(s) and proceeding to beat the poor thing(s) into submission. Prancing around without doing much dancing. Good technique, but no soul. Granted, some of these are just bad dancing, having nothing to do with male/female - but I see more males doing it and "getting away with it". Or sometimes its just attitude. Its one of those "I know it when I see it" things sometimes.

As for Amir - I'd have to go back to watch his video again, but as I recall he looked pretty good. His costuming isn't my thing (and that's OK), but I do remember liking his dancing. What Chryssanthi Sahar says is utter truth, overanalyzing ruins the experience. "Eyes of a child" and all that. I agree.

Zorba · 10-17-2006, 03:09 PM

It seemed to make sense (this time) to move this discussion to its own thread (With what I hope is a humerous title!).

Good info Tarik, re: males in NY. I know this has been going on for a few years here and there - some call it "metrosexuality". Although I don't think it goes far enough (!), I'm all for it. I just hope it sticks.

steffib · 10-17-2006, 10:11 PM

I am by no means an expert in this - but I work with an (ATS) troupe that has a male dancer. I have a fairly straight-forward view on the issue, and within our parameters, things seems to be quite simple:

When it comes to our male troupe member as a dancer who is part of the troupe, I consider him a dancer, and I could not care less about gender - what matters is technique and teamwork. It seems only fair to expect him to perform all moves with the same precision as everybody else, some moves may come easier to him, others may not, but that happens to females, as well. He happens to be really smart, so he tends to have a prominent role when an anchor dancer is needed.

When it comes to the more free artistic expression, he is definitely different than I am as a female. At performances, we like to do duets, in part inspired by a great video I have seen of Tarik and Morocco. It is undeniable that we are a male and a female, which gives our performances a special energy and makes it a heck of a lot of fun to go with that flow (both of us are in a long-term relationship not with each other, and I am 10 years older). We don't try to be anything we are not, that is just what we both like to do.

In a recent performance, when he had a solo, he came around and flirted with us girls (we were seated on straw bales around the stage - and at least one of the group is 20 years older than he is!). Again, that was light-hearted, cheerful and somewhat humorous.

That's my personal, very positive experience with male dancing.

Zorba · 10-17-2006, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steffib

When it comes to our male troupe member as a dancer who is part of the troupe, I consider him a dancer, and I could not care less about gender - what matters is technique and teamwork. It seems only fair to expect him to perform all moves with the same precision as everybody else, some moves may come easier to him, others may not, but that happens to females, as well.

Thank you. Someone who GETS IT!

Tarik Sultan · 10-19-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Uh...

Tarik - I think you need to re-interpret what I was saying - OBVIOUSLY I put my foot in my mouth and didn't communicate well enough!

For instance: "Stupid Male Tricks" - I'm not saying YOU do them, I'm saying a lot of (other) male dancers do. Not you, hopefully not me, not DaVid, and not Aziz.

I've always found that you and I either agree 100% or agree 99.5% on just about everything about this dance. I don't think that's changed...

Sometimes I get so *frustrated* with the limitations of the written word on message boards!

It is, and always has been my position that Belly Dance is neither "Masculine" nor "Feminine", just "Human", BUT that
it (currently) resides in a "Feminine" context. A subtle, but important difference and is my interpretation of what you've been saying as well... (?)

Hey Zorba:

I'm sorry if I came across as angry. I do have very srtong convictions, (NO REALLY? Couldn't tell.), and I do have an issue around this issue for reasons that I'll explain. The issue of the effeminatemale dancer is one that comes up over and over again. I guess if there were more of us and things were more even, it wouldn't be an issue for me.

I got into the dance because I love it and wanted everyone to know how wonderful it is and recognize it as a true art. The assumption of "gayness" is often used to dismiss the legitimacy of male dancers, in other words the stereo type is, "This is a woman's dance=a man doing it must be gay=gays aren't real men, they really wanrt to be women". Therefore, whenever I see something that reinforces the stereotype, it makes me bristle.

Believe it or not, I have lost very good jobs because a very effeminate guy dancerd there after I did and just put a bad taste in everyone's mouth regarding male dancers. I was approached to do a venue because the female customers were asking for a guy. Assi form Israel was here at the same time, but wasn't chosen because at that time he only wore gallabeyas and the owner wanted a flashier costume. So I did the job and it went very well. However, the dancer who was booking the gig was always evasive when I asked her when I was coming back. What I found out later was that she had a student who she wanted to do the gig instead. I know this guy quite well and for him, it seems, dancing was all about his sexuality, rather than the culture music, or art.

It wasn't enogh for him to be gay, he had to be Super gay and make sure everyone knew it. He went in ther wearing three contrasting shades of eye shadow, (gay flag, I'm not kidding), a woman's balkan vest, the kind that is cut to fit around the bust so that his big red nipples were showing, laddies earings and a seethrough pair of harem pants. As if this were not bad enough, he had very bad posture and really limp wrists. It made the crowd very uncomfortable and put such a bad taste in the owners mouth, he decided never to hire a male dancer again, regardless of the fact that the crowd and himself had appreciated my show.

This is why I get annoyed and frustrated. If there were more of us and some of us were effeminate and some weren't, then the public might realise that understand that it depends on the individual. I know you don't dress the way you do for the reason I mentioned, but that's because I know you somewhat from your website and posts, but the problem is we rarely get a chance to speak to people. That is why I think image and not behaving in ways that confirm the stereotype is important. I really am concerned with the image of the dance and that we get taken seriously. I don't like the fact that our sisters are taken for bimbos and our brothers are dismissed as sissies, (shades of Billy Elliot).....Does any of this make sense?

Zorba · 10-20-2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

I know you don't dress the way you do for the reason I mentioned, but that's because I know you somewhat from your website and posts, but the problem is we rarely get a chance to speak to people. That is why I think image and not behaving in ways that confirm the stereotype is important. I really am concerned with the image of the dance and that we get taken seriously. I don't like the fact that our sisters are taken for bimbos and our brothers are dismissed as sissies, (shades of Billy Elliot).....Does any of this make sense?

Yes it does...

Hey - we're GUYS, of COURSE we have strong feelings/opinions on things we're passionate about. The gals are probably looking at this conversation and going "Yep, typical guys!". HA!

You have strong feelings about (so called) effeminacy. I have strong feelings about constraining "masculinity" - I don't like artificial boundaries, and that's what I feel they are, is artificial. But you knew that...

Here's the thing that just "blows me away". Ok, I make no attempt to be so called "Masculine" - conversely, I make no attempt to be so called "Feminine" - I only attempt to be myself. The "Masculine beauty" thing. I don't do drag - or at least what *I* would call drag - my costumes are "masculine" (at least to my mind), no fake boobs (biology), etc. I've worn earrings, usually large dangles, in both ears in my mundane life for a number of years now. I'm loaded with pretty jewelry for performances. I use Kohl, eyeshadow and foundation (but no lipstick, can't stand the feel of the stuff). Blah, blah, blah. All this has cultural precedence for men - as you probably know - not that it would make much difference to me...

BUT...

Virtually "Everyone" says my overall presentation, costuming and dance - is "Masculine"! The women love my "exotic, painted" persona. People of both genders love my dancing (as much as you'd expect for a male dancer, anyways) - not that I'm any great shakes (I'm not). This is in spite of my breaking "the rules". As you know, I have no use for rulebooks.

My personal belief is that this is so because I'm *REAL* - I present not "Masculine", not "Feminine", but as *ME*. Since my demeanor comes across as "Masculine", people perceive me as such - even when doing floaty veilwork - maybe even especially when I do floaty veilwork.

Tarik - I'm an "armchair philosopher" and "armchair psychologist" - which means I don't know a darn thing about either, yet I'm fascinated by such things and am always learning more as I try to figure out just WHAT makes people tick. Gender expectations is probably the most dangerous place to tinker with and/or study - and here I am in the middle of it! Loving every minute too...

I'm rambling again - but go to my site, take a look at the menu option "Zorba in motion", and play the QuickTime (7) videos you'll find there and you tell me if I'm "masculine" or not. Its only one example of several that I do, but its at least available. "Masculine" or "feminine", I won't be offended either way, but my dance sisters sure liked my veil routine (even though I thought it was rough, even for ME).

As for the sexuality thing - I don't know (and don't care) what most people think. Yes, I've had some express surprise when they find out I'm married (23 years!) - I suppose that means they thought I was gay. Whatever...

Zorba · 10-20-2006, 04:59 AM

One further though - I never can just shut up about it already!

I probably send out so many conflicting signals that a lot of people either don't know WHAT to think (an uncomfortable spot to be in for most people) about my gender/sexuality, etc - and/or they just default to what they see which is undeniably male. And that's just in "Real Life"!

"Keep 'em Guessing" is my motto - "Never be predictable".

I might get entirely different reactions if I didn't have facial hair - that de-"feminizes" darn near anything.

I know you (Tarik) disagree with me here - but to my mind the ultimate frontier for either gender is androgyny - something I can't pull off! If I can't figure out what gender a performer is (regardless of artform chosen), I'm just fascinated and think that's the coolest thing! The other social preoccupation - sexuality - I seldom think about it as I don't care what another person's sexuality is - I'm old fashioned in that regard - its their business, not mine!

Aniseteph · 10-20-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

I know you (Tarik) disagree with me here - but to my mind the ultimate frontier for either gender is androgyny - something I can't pull off! If I can't figure out what gender a performer is (regardless of artform chosen), I'm just fascinated and think that's the coolest thing!

I'm with Tarik on this one. I find it really distracting not to know. For me as an audience member it's totally the wrong way to go if a dancer is trying to convey messages "beyond" the male/female thing. Does that make sense? When someone goes for truly androgynous I'm wondering a) is that a man or a woman (draws the attention like an impending costume disaster), and b) why does he/she dress that way? To make me go

, to make some sort of point about his/her sexuality (that I'm not interested in)? I don't know... What it absolutely doesn't succeed in doing (for me) is to write the male/female out of the equation and let the art be experienced as just human. On the contrary, it just accentuates it, like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.

I've seen men dancing very masculine and very feminine styles, and like both, as long as it's good dancing. Conveying a feeling is what it's all about IMHO and neither men nor women have a monopoly on particular feelings. Having said that, some audiences are going to have problems with the feelings some dancers want to convey... I'd have thought it was part of a professional's job to gauge the audience/venue and choose something appropriate.

Tarik Sultan · 10-20-2006, 07:52 PM

Anisetepth makes a great point. Not that I don't understand where your coming from Zorba, I do and just for the record, I've seen your clips and I don't find you effeminate, even though I would never choose to wear some of your accessories.

I do wear a minimal amount of makeup to hide my shaving scars, eyebrow liner to define my mustach and beard and liner to define my eyes. I use cosmetics to define my male features, not make a gender statement. To me that's another battle. For you this is an issue that's central to your life, on and off stage, for others, I feel they do it to broadcast their sexual preference. I feel that if a guy is effeminate, that's just who he is an you can see it. Dressing up is like putting hot sauce on chilli peppers, not neccessary.
I think they should strive to be known as a great artist, not that gay guy that belly dances.

On the issue of evening the gender playing field, there is another reason why I prefeer to see a guy present a masquline and that is because I think its high time that the entertainment industry as a whole acknowledge women. I mean think about it, everything is geared to what men find asthetically pleasing. Look at all the music videos, magazine adds. Even our dance was designed with a guys idea of the ideal woman in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating feminine beauty, but it why can't women go to a show and see beautiful guys dancing for their viewing pleasure, who really know how to dance and are not strippers? Guys have been able to appreciate women's beauty in an artistic context, why should women be able to enjoy the same privilidge, (sp?)?

10-17-2006, 03:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	It seemed to make sense (this time) to move this discussion to its own thread (With what I hope is a humerous title!). Good info Tarik, re: males in NY. I know this has been going on for a few years here and there - some call it "metrosexuality". Although I don't think it goes far enough (!), I'm all for it. I just hope it sticks. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

10-20-2006, 04:59 AM	#18 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	One further though - I never can just shut up about it already! I probably send out so many conflicting signals that a lot of people either don't know WHAT to think (an uncomfortable spot to be in for most people) about my gender/sexuality, etc - and/or they just default to what they see which is undeniably male. And that's just in "Real Life"! "Keep 'em Guessing" is my motto - "Never be predictable". I might get entirely different reactions if I didn't have facial hair - that de-"feminizes" darn near anything. I know you (Tarik) disagree with me here - but to my mind the ultimate frontier for either gender is androgyny - something I can't pull off! If I can't figure out what gender a performer is (regardless of artform chosen), I'm just fascinated and think that's the coolest thing! The other social preoccupation - sexuality - I seldom think about it as I don't care what another person's sexuality is - I'm old fashioned in that regard - its their business, not mine! __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

10-17-2006, 10:11 PM	#14 (permalink)
steffib Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 46	I am by no means an expert in this - but I work with an (ATS) troupe that has a male dancer. I have a fairly straight-forward view on the issue, and within our parameters, things seems to be quite simple: When it comes to our male troupe member as a dancer who is part of the troupe, I consider him a dancer, and I could not care less about gender - what matters is technique and teamwork. It seems only fair to expect him to perform all moves with the same precision as everybody else, some moves may come easier to him, others may not, but that happens to females, as well. He happens to be really smart, so he tends to have a prominent role when an anchor dancer is needed. When it comes to the more free artistic expression, he is definitely different than I am as a female. At performances, we like to do duets, in part inspired by a great video I have seen of Tarik and Morocco. It is undeniable that we are a male and a female, which gives our performances a special energy and makes it a heck of a lot of fun to go with that flow (both of us are in a long-term relationship not with each other, and I am 10 years older). We don't try to be anything we are not, that is just what we both like to do. In a recent performance, when he had a solo, he came around and flirted with us girls (we were seated on straw bales around the stage - and at least one of the group is 20 years older than he is!). Again, that was light-hearted, cheerful and somewhat humorous. That's my personal, very positive experience with male dancing.

10-20-2006, 07:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Anisetepth makes a great point. Not that I don't understand where your coming from Zorba, I do and just for the record, I've seen your clips and I don't find you effeminate, even though I would never choose to wear some of your accessories. I do wear a minimal amount of makeup to hide my shaving scars, eyebrow liner to define my mustach and beard and liner to define my eyes. I use cosmetics to define my male features, not make a gender statement. To me that's another battle. For you this is an issue that's central to your life, on and off stage, for others, I feel they do it to broadcast their sexual preference. I feel that if a guy is effeminate, that's just who he is an you can see it. Dressing up is like putting hot sauce on chilli peppers, not neccessary. I think they should strive to be known as a great artist, not that gay guy that belly dances. On the issue of evening the gender playing field, there is another reason why I prefeer to see a guy present a masquline and that is because I think its high time that the entertainment industry as a whole acknowledge women. I mean think about it, everything is geared to what men find asthetically pleasing. Look at all the music videos, magazine adds. Even our dance was designed with a guys idea of the ideal woman in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating feminine beauty, but it why can't women go to a show and see beautiful guys dancing for their viewing pleasure, who really know how to dance and are not strippers? Guys have been able to appreciate women's beauty in an artistic context, why should women be able to enjoy the same privilidge, (sp?)?