Sharif

I totally wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that belly dance is a "feminine essenced dance" (made by A'isha Azar in separate threads). This may be:

1. The opinion of perhaps a majority in the Middle East.
2. A personal opinion of A'isha Azar.

Neither of these make it true.

re. 1: There are many opinions in the Middle East that I do not want to subject myself to. This is just one more. I think women especially should be careful to glorify ME culture, seeing what treatment women get there.

re. 2:

• When I dance, I feel totally in touch with myself and aware of myself, and thus, being a male, very masculine. I am sure female dancers will feel very feminine. That does not make either feeling true for the other gender or for the dance in general. The opinion of the audience (their impression of gender) is as much shaped by their expectations (most BD'ers are women) as by the dance itself.
• No male dancer on this forum has supported this view yet. This is of course a very touchy-feely subject, so hard evidence is impossible to get. But if there were any truth in it, surely some males should feel the same way?
• Now suppose it were true that (outside of reproduction) there are activities that are essentially male or female. We would then be free to name them and promote this division, of course, but that would open up quite a Pandora's box, wouldn't it? Some people already say that "leading groups of people" is a masculine essenced activity, and they would be totally justified in that. So "glass ceilings" in corporations and lower average wages for women are a natural phenomenon, and we should not fight the natural order of things, right?

No, I think we should just enjoy the dance whenever possible, in whatever way works for us, and entertain our audiences. That's all there's to it!

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~SHARIF~ www.bellydancersharif.com

Aisha Azar

Dear Sherif,

It is my opinion and the opinion of the people who developed the dance. Since it is their dance, could we please give them credit for having some depth of understanding about what it is? It strikes me as particularly haughty on the part of western dancers when we try to deny what the people of the countries of origin say about their own dances.
Also, Aziz, who is the best professional male dancer that I have ever seen, readily acknowledged that the dance is femenine in essence. He was not afraid of that statement in any way and did not feel that being a belly dancer threatened him as a human being on any level. Which is one of the things that made him so amazing. He was totally fearless and completely in sync about the dance being feminine essenced. He understood that it took nothing away from him.
Regards,
A'isha

Recnadocir

I think I just echoed Sharif's thoughts on a post in another thread, and wholeheartedly agree, so I will include him in my plurality here.

Belly dance may very well be "feminine essenced" to you, Aisha Azar, and perhaps even to every other woman who dances it. Great! But it is not "feminine essenced" to us. I"m not saying it's "masculine essenced" when I dance it either. But I am a male, and only I can know the essence of the dance for me, and it is not in any particular way gender related. I suspect there are women who feel that the dance is deeper than gender for them as well.

Like it or not, it's an indisputable fact. The essence of the dance is personal, physical and spiritual, and if this includes gender for you, than that is your truth. If the male dancer you mention feels feminine when he dances, that is his truth. But our truths about the dance are equally valid, and do not have to be the same as yours.

__________________
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Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!

Aisha Azar

Dear Rico,
I can only repeat here again, can we please let the people who developd the dance from their culture have the acknowledgement that they understand their own art forms? This is something that men as well as women acknowledge. It is not about what I thnk, but about what the people who's dance it is think. I wish that just once you would really listen to what I say and quit making it about me or you.
It is not all about us... it is about the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Recnadocir

Of course, they are free to think whatever they like. If every single person in all the Middle Eastern countries wants to believe belly dance is "feminine essenced," than that is their truth. It is still not my truth.

__________________
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Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!

Aisha Azar

Dear Rico,
And when for you, does it get to be about the dance as opposed to being all about you? I am really not saying this to be a snot. I just don't know how to word it so it sounds like a really honest inquiry in any other way.
when do you look beyond your own needs to see the dance in any sort of reality that does not revolve around you? It is a thing separate from yourself as well as being a part of you.
Regards,
A'isha

Recnadocir

__________________
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Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!

Zumarrad

Belly dance, specifically belly dance for performance, has been culturally coded feminine for a century or more. Ergo, people in the ME (and elsewhere) see it as a woman's thing. In the 19th century men did perform what sounds as if it probably was what you or I would consider belly dance - some in drag and some not. It *does* sound as if those men and boys were occupying a rather liminal position in the societies they lived in, possibly not perceived as entirely male or female (especially given that some of them were "full service" professionals. Flaubert slept with at least one.) Any respect those guys got seems to have dissipated - one word for male dancer is now the word for a gay "catcher".

But ME men do dance something that, to your average western person, looks like belly dance, socially. The only difference I've seen has been a tendency not to use the hips as much - I've seen very few ME men dancing though, so some might do more.

My impression is that dancing is always a bit "dodgy" anyway - it's a space in which people can safely "misbehave" a little, and that includes disrupting gender. This is not confined to the ME.

Anybody who hates ME cultures that much shouldn't belly dance IMO. I think we have no right whatsoever to take something that belongs to an already disempowered set of people and try and make it "better" like a pack of great white fathers. We have vastly more power than they do. We need to acknowledge that we're playing in *their* sandpit.

Aisha Azar

Dear Zummarad,
Yes!! There is that tinge of imperialist, colonialist thinking in the idea that we can do whatever we want with anyone's stuff and not give any validity to the culture from which it comes. That whole psychology is pretty evident when people say that they "don't care" about where the dance comes from, its meaning, feeling etc.
Thanks for including a bit of history as well. I was not aware of the "catcher: title. Saudis sometimes refer to "Funny Boys".
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Morning all, (at least it's morning here in soggy Jersey City):
I think the problem here is that we are looking at the issue from a one answer perspective. The problem is that there is no ONE ANSWER to this issue. There is no such thing as "reality" and "truth" in this dimension. Reality and truth are multifaceted, there is no one truth or reality, but many all existing at the same time like the facets of a diamond. Therefore, no one here is neccessarily right or wrong. There is truth in everything that has ben said here.

I addressed this issue in another post, so I'll reprint it here for you all:

Hello all:

I’ve been following this thread from time to time for the past few weeks. Forgive me for not chiming in earlier. It was the posts between Aisha and Jamil which motivated me to respond. They seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, but in fact they aren’t, in fact, there is a cornel of truth in everything that has been said. I hate reading big blocks of text on the internet, so I’ll spare youy all by chopping this up into several posts. Let me start with the issue of the “essence” of Oriental dance, (available either in the spray or bath oil at Macys).

The professional version of this dance known in Arabic as Raks sharki, is based on the movement vocabulary of the native dance social dance, Rak Baladi. As to whether or not it is feminine in essence….I would say yes and no. Now when I use the term masculine and feminine, what I’m referring to is expressions of energy. Masculine energy is aggressive, forceful, assertive. Feminine energy is nurturing, loving, for want of a better word…passive. Now if we look at the nature of this dance, either the professional or the social version, we will see that it has more of the feminine qualities. Why do I say this, because it is a happy, loving, accepting, friendly. Depending on who is dancing it can have some of the masculine qualities as well such as assertiveness, or it can be coy and shy, or can be both, assertive one moment and coy the next. Nevertheless, it has more of the gentler energy. Does this necessarily translate womanly or female, no. A very manly man does not become womanly when he’s cuddling a puppy or a baby, even though the emotions and act of cuddling is an expression of feminine energy.

So the next logical question: Is the professional version a womanly dance? Once again, yes and no. The professional version of the dance we are familiar with, whether you call it Oriental, Sharki or belly dance, which developed in the late ‘20’s and the ‘30’s in Egypt, was specifically designed with the female performer in mind. They were not concerned with representing the reality of the folk culture, in fact, they tried to distance themselves from it as much as possible. Yes it was artistic, but it was also commercial as well and the clientele was and still remains, primarily male. Therefore, the dance and dancer were redesigned to represent the epitome of feminine beauty and grace. The highest expression of this feminine ideal was represented by the new Hollywood inspired costume designed to enhance the natural contours of a woman’s body, where traditional garments are designed to conceal the body. Therefore, the current professional version of the dance we are used to, performed in nightclubs, restaurants, and film remains an expression of femininity, even though the movement vocabulary itself is in fact unisex.