Recnadocir

Shanazel, you have a bright future in politics. Or the stage, either way, I salute you!

__________________
http://a537.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...0267e2f1c0.jpg
Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
Thanks for the info on Turkey. I thought it might be about the same but I have never had a chance to talk to Turks at length, so yu have added greatly to my knowledge. BTW there is a young woman teaching on an internship at OMI in New York right now. You might have met her. her name is Jennet. Tallish blonde and about 24. She just returned from Turkey where she is studying the culture/dance in depth. Fabulous dancer and I hope you two manage to connect. I am finally getting around to studying Turkish Rom and belly dance with her and she is wonderful!
REgards,
A'isha

Shanazel

In politics??? My dear, that statement makes me wonder: are you saluting me with all your fingers or just one?

Zorba

A'isha -

Since the original thread where you and I were having the same debate that you and Tarik are now having has been demolished in the name of "on topic", and I haven't a clue where it is now....

I'll stay out of this one as much as I can as I feel Tarik has probably forgotten more about this dance than I'll ever know. Besides, he's saying essentially the same thing only far better than I could. More importantly, so does Aunt Rocky. The only thing Morocco has ever said on the subject of male dancers that I didn't like (that I know about anyways) is that we shouldn't do veilwork - I respectfully disagree. Otherwise, as she says, "The movement vocabulary is the movement vocabulary".

But - I wanted to reply to your comment about my keeping our debate non-personal and non combative, etc. You're most welcome, and I note the same thing in you! We all learn when we can have true discourse. While I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on certain things - you've won my respect and admiration all the same! You're one of the good ones.

I, to a certain extent, blame myself for not being articulate enough to explain exactly what I mean at times.

{BOW HERE}

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

taheya

I have to agree with rico and sharif on this one. I think traditionally we are used to seeing female belly dancers. Therefore we associate belly dance with women. I dont personally feel that the dance is gender linked, it is due to the prevalence of female dancers that we assume it is "feminine".

Aisha Azar

Dear Zorba,
Thank you, and I return the compliment to you!
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

(I'm really getting confused and having a hard time following this thread because it keeps getting disected and scattered to the far winds. Can we just agree to keep it under this heading please?).

Okay, what’s next? :
Tackling this issue is harder than untangling an afro that hasn’t been combed in a month! Oh well, I guess that’s why God invented picks and Afro Sheen!

If I had to choose two words, to describe Egyptian society they would be ambivalence and conformity. Its not just in regards to dance, ITS EVERYTHING, racial identity, class, sexuality, religion, politics, you name it. However, I’ll focus on the issue at hand, which is, “ Is dancing considered shameful for men in the Middle East”? The answer is yes and no. So when some people say yes it is considered shameful, they are right, when others say no it isn’t they are also right. It all depends on the context that its happening in. By there is also an element of “shame” in regards to female dancing as well, which is also predicated on the context with in which this activity takes place. First, lets look at issue of “shame” in the context of social dance.

Generally speaking, there is no sense of shame connected to dancing socially, even when the movement vocabulary being used is identical to that which we are accustomed to seeing women do. In the social context, men actually have far more freedom and acceptance than women do. Its been my personal experience both in the Arab communities here as well as in various Middle Eastern countries, Egypt in particular, that people really enjoy seeing a guy who dances well. Case in point: This summer I was in Egypt and I went out to a club with a group of friends. One of my friends is a dancer I know from New York who is now living there. She’s a real live wire with a bit of a wild streak. She was up and dancing as soon as we got there, so eventually she pulled me up to dance with her, (something she would NOT have been doing if she was a native Egyptian woman who cared about maintaining a good reputation). The clientele was predominantly male, but even so, they really enjoyed watching me dance and even got up to join me. They were all either Egyptian or from the Gulf. Even some of the musicians and waiters started to dance with me. This is the typical response I experienced whenever I or another guy would get up to dance.

In social situations, men are enthusiastically encouraged to dance, especially if they are known to be good dancers. This point was illustrated later in the evening when a middle-aged guy sitting at the next table got up to dance spontaneously. It wasn’t just the fact that he executed all the movements, figure 8’s, ¾ shimmies, hip drops and circles with well oiled precision, but the unrestrained and exuberant spirit that animated his dance. He had more umph than most people I know half his age. I spoke to him afterwards because I wanted to get him on film, (never happened!). His name was Abu Ziad, 45 years old, the father of three and a cab driver for one of the five star hotels. He said that his dancing was a gift from God. When he was a boy he never danced, but watched at weddings and parties. One day when he was 14 he just got up at a wedding and started dancing and blew everyone away! Ever since then he had a reputation for being an exceptionally gifted dancer and whenever he went to a wedding or party, he could never sit down because all the people wanted to see him dance.
By the way, here's a clip of some footage I took on one of the party felucas on the Nile this summer. This guy was a far better dancer than I was able to show here, too many people walking in front of the camera:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvCmUyU6Gc8

Exceptions to this rule: When a person reaches a certain social level, they are expected to maintain an air of respectability and dignity in public. You will not see Hosney Mubarak or any of his officials shaking their tail feathers in public any time soon, (that goes double for Mrs. Mubarak), and if they do get up to dance, they will be very restrained. I often wondered why it was that when I see Arabic singers on television they seem so stiff. I especially noticed this with Hakim, because I’ve seen him just about every time he’s come to New York and he’s quite a live wire. When I saw him performing for a New Years celebration on T.V. he was uncharacteristically subdued. When I asked my friends about this they told me that it was because he was on T.V., so he had to be dignified. In the next post I’ll talk about how the issue of professional dancing is perceived.

Tarik Sultan

<Snip>
Tarik... on the "duck" thing we must disagree. I give the people of the Middle East credit for understanding what they are doing, and if they recognize differences between belly dance and other types of dance, then I feel that they know what they are talking about. Again, it comes not down to movement but to that now infamous word, "essence". And I can see these differences, too. It is not a matter of if one is moving the hips or whatever, it is more than that. It is nothing to do with movement and everything to do with how that movement is approached on psychological and cultural levels, I guess would be a way to try to say it. If THEY do not think they are belly dancing becasue they recognize the difference in the essence and feeling of the dances, then who am I to argue about it?
<Snip>
....Well...of course there are going to be differences in the essence when you compair the way a man does the movement as compared to how a woman does it. I maintain that one of the major differences between Oriental Dance and western dances is the emotional qulaity. the technique is there to allow you to express your feelings and personality, rather than showing how athletic you can be. The way a man relates to the world and himself emotionally does differ because we don't experience the world in the same way. I still think its a matter of splitting hairs and that the main concern is that they don't want to be misunderstood as trying to immitate women.

Tarik Sultan

Hey A'isha:
I haven't met her yet, but then again I don't get around much because I'm too busy working, so unless she comes to one of my classes or stops by somewhere I'm performing I wouldn't know her. I'd love to meet her though.

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
I had a little bit of an epiphany this A.M.
In looking back over the many posts on this subject, I notice that most people seem to equate dance with movement more than any other element of the dance, whereas I equate the dance with its essence more than any other aspect. I understand responders to be sayaing "The movements are male and female", or "In social dancing men are belly dancing because they are doing the same movements as the women". My understanding of the situation is that if Arab guys say they are not belly dancing, I can agree because I see that the essence and feeling of what they are doing is very different from belly dance as in what we see on the stage, via such performers as Sohair Zaki, Fif, Lucy, Randa, etc. The men that I know personally do not feel that they are doing the same dance as these women, but instead see social dancing, as you have said, as something different than what is being done on stage. To me, even the movements of social dancing are more beledi and shaabi in their lack of complexity in MOST cases, (though I know an Egyptian man who can rival any dancer that I have seen in this area as well!).
Regards,
A'isha