Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
Oh NOOOO, not you again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm so happy!!!, how are you??? It's wonderful to see you here and I hope you get totally comfy. I LOVE this forum and I think you will, too.
Good answer above, though I would argue that the dance was developing before the advent of Badia Masabni taking to the stage, just as tap evolved in the cities of America before it got famous on the stage, and NOT for the entertainment of the tourists or soldiers, but as an entertainment for the Egyptian people. Saidi and Beledi became Raqs Sharghi in the more sophistocated city environment. Badia just notched it up to the stage.
Re: movement vocabulary. We have had this debate before, too, and while I believe there are movements tht specifically express femininity and masculinty, you believe that movement is genderless and does not have specific meaning, if I remember from some of our other debates. Movment is not dance, it is movement. Dance is certainly more specific than movement in its intent MOST of the time. In the case of belly dance, that movement is specifically intended to give a feminine message and essence. But, as you know, I am in favor of men belly dancing and always have been. The fact remains that in the Middle East, men who belly dance are breaking a social rule and looked down on even more than women. This again is a general comment, but very much based in fact.
We must keep in mind that social dancing is different than belly dance on the stage, however. I have met many men who get up and dance very well. But when I have asked them, they claim they are doing Shaabi or Beledi.... never Raqs Sharghi.

Dear Group,
Tarik and I have had this debate on another forum and in the process got to know each other and I have great respect and love for him. I hope he feels the same about me.

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

* Can I think about that for a second?....Yeah, I do! Birds of a feather have to stick together.

Love and light
Tarik

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
Yes, there have been Ghawazi in the cities for ever, but then that is
not "belly dance" and was performed by professonal entertainers.
I think belly dance developed as an entertainment among the people and was not separated out as done FOR an audience instead of by the people until later in its evolution, much like tap in this country. I agree that Badia is who got the eye of the public and made innovations to the dance that made it become performance art extraordinaire!!
Hmm, one can go lower in Arab society than being a prostitute by being a male prostitue. Even this dirty job should be left to women....
I also do not consider hip movements to be male or female, but I do consider the way in which they are done specifically by males and females to have gender meanings. This along with body carraige and other aspects, give the movement its very specific gender meaning, though the actual basis of the movement iself may not have one. (But, what movement is ever done in a vacuum, and in and of itself, except when breaking it down to teach it!!)
Tarik... on the "duck" thing we must disagree. I give the people of the Middle East credit for understanding what they are doing, and if they recognize differences between belly dance and other types of dance, then I feel that they know what they are talking about. Again, it comes not down to movement but to that now infamous word, "essence". And I can see these differences, too. It is not a matter of if one is moving the hips or whatever, it is more than that. It is nothing to do with movement and everything to do with how that movement is approached on psychological and cultural levels, I guess would be a way to try to say it. If THEY do not think they are belly dancing becasue they recognize the difference in the essence and feeling of the dances, then who am I to argue about it?
BTW, I have often wondered if Turkish dance audiences respond to men more positively than Arab ones. Can you give us some information about that? While I feel qualified to speak at length about Arabs, my Turkish knowledge is pretty limited.
Hugs to you,
A'isha

Recnadocir

Dear Readers,

I've been trying to move some of these posts to threads where they more properly belong, and it is very difficult sorting them out, or how to work the system. I'm still trying. Please note, however, that this thread, "Feminine essenced dance," is for posts relevant to that discussion. I have not deleted any posts, just reported one, and that one not because the person disagreed with me, but used vulgar language.

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Zumarrad

I can't believe I'm trolling. But Rico, why not simply remove the "vulgar language" from the post? If its essence didn't bother you?

I'm sorry, I forget that for many Americans what we consider normal speech is considered vulgar. I do apologise, not for swearing - which I didn't - but for referring bodily functions.

Recnadocir

Dear Readers,

The posts I have just moved, today, have been moved to the "Cultural Appreciation and BD History" thread in the Other Dance Stuff Forum. FYI, I also move my own posts when I re-read them and realize they aren't really on topic.

No posts have been deleted by me.

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Tarik Sultan

Dear Tarik,
Yes, there have been Ghawazi in the cities for ever, but then that is
not "belly dance" and was performed by professonal entertainers.
I think belly dance developed as an entertainment among the people and was not separated out as done FOR an audience instead of by the people until later in its evolution, much like tap in this country.

*I think I understand what you're saying. I do agree that what we recognize today as Raks Sharki is very different from what was being done 150 years ago. I don't know if I would consider it a different dance as much as I would consider it an evolution, in much the same way that modern Jazz differs greatly from the big band sound of the 30's and 40's. I guess its just a matter of looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

I agree that Badia is who got the eye of the public and made innovations to the dance that made it become performance art extraordinaire!!
Hmm, one can go lower in Arab society than being a prostitute by being a male prostitue. Even this dirty job should be left to women....

* Yes, but there're so many of them never the less. thing is they can hide their dirt a lot easier than the women can. The operative word is "don't get caught".

I also do not consider hip movements to be male or female, but I do consider the way in which they are done specifically by males and females to have gender meanings. This along with body carraige and other aspects, give the movement its very specific gender meaning, though the actual basis of the movement iself may not have one.

*Yes I totally agree. I saw this very clearly haning around the party felucas on the Nile this summer, (the ones with all the neon lights and loud balasting music). The captins often hire street kids, (girls and gay kids), to dance on the prows to attract customers. I noticed that there was a very big difference in the essence expressed when the gay kids were dancing as compared to the "regular guys", even when they were doing the exact same movements, and yet still another level of difference when the girls danced.

(But, what movement is ever done in a vacuum, and in and of itself, except when breaking it down to teach it!!)

* this is true. I've always been of the opinion that it is the individual thqat gives the movement its life for want of a better word. this is why one person can do a movement and it looks happy and playfull, while another person doing the exact same movement makes it look erotic.

Tarik... on the "duck" thing we must disagree. I give the people of the Middle East credit for understanding what they are doing, and if they recognize differences between belly dance and other types of dance, then I feel that they know what they are talking about. Again, it comes not down to movement but to that now infamous word, "essence". And I can see these differences, too. It is not a matter of if one is moving the hips or whatever, it is more than that. It is nothing to do with movement and everything to do with how that movement is approached on psychological and cultural levels, I guess would be a way to try to say it. If THEY do not think they are belly dancing becasue they recognize the difference in the essence and feeling of the dances, then who am I to argue about it?

*I can understand this point of view, I would just say that one is the male expression and one is the female expression. However, I have met many guys who call what they do belly dancing as well. But I can understand those who would say that what they do is something different based on what they are expressing and their gender identity. I really don't care so much how they catagorize it, as long as they just do it and have fun. I think the positive engery it generates and that is shared for themselves and those around them to be more important than the semantics.

BTW, I have often wondered if Turkish dance audiences respond to men more positively than Arab ones. Can you give us some information about that? While I feel qualified to speak at length about Arabs, my Turkish knowledge is pretty limited.
Hugs to you,
A'isha

*You know, I guess it would be pretty much the same. My very first professioanl nightclub gig was in a Turkish establishment and I was very well received. Turkey does have a very strong and old tradition of the male dancers, and recent years they have resurfaced again and you can even buy DVDS of these traditional male dancers. In addition, there are now several male dancers in nightclubs there, so there does seem to be a level of acceptance there in the arena of professional male dancers. That having been said, I did read an article about a young dancer who was rescued by the police because his father had chained him to the bed to prevent him from dancing in public. He felt it was a shameful profession.

Personally, I remember a show I did in a Turkish restaurant where a waiter was gicving me a really hard time when he saw me in costume. He was telling me men don't dance like that in Turkey, there were never male dancers in Turkey and that the audience wouldn't accept me and everyone was going to laugh at me. Not only did they not laugh, but they demanded an encore! So I guess there are some who are fine with it as long as the performer gives a good show and others who can't wrap their heads around it for whatever reason.

On the whole though, I have found that North Africans, Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisisans, to be the most open to the idea of male performers.

By the way, regarding the felucas in Egypt and the gay kids. I was really surprised at how accepting the people on the boats were of them. The most popular boats were the ones that had the most flamboyant queens dancing on them. the people were really facinated with them and these were not "tourists", even though there were a lot of Gulf tourists, half of the clientele were native Egyptians from all economic backgrounds, especially the blue collar working class.

There was only one guy I saw that was really disturbed by them, (although he was a bit of an odd ball, probably blew his brains out on hash). He tried to rough up one of the kids dancing on the boat, but all the customers rushed to his defense. They thaught this guy was being a complete A hole and kept asking him what's his problem. and this is the same Cairo where not a nightclub in sight would hire a guy to dance no matter how good he is gay or straight, so go figure. Just when you though you had everything figured out reality throws you a curve ball.

Shanazel

I am already on record somewhere as being a person who struggles with the concept of belly dance as done by men, as well as one who is willing to be enlightened, so I am reading this thread with interest. I agree in my heart with A'isha that belly dance is feminine in essence, which is not to say men should keep their shimmies under wraps and not follow their own passion for this dance or any other. What comes to mind on the subject of femininity and belly dance is one of Morrocco's essays on watching women dance for a laboring sister, encouraging her and helping her through a difficult and exclusively feminine experience with the movements of their own bodies.

More than once in my life, I have been the only woman or one of the only women working in a so-called masculine profession. I understand feeling defensive about the right to work- or dance- in a chosen field, about any criticism aimed my way for daring enter a bastion of masculinity, about searching for any precedents I could quote to make my own position more acceptable. In reading this thread and others re: the femininity/masculinity of belly dance, I sympathize with the struggle for full acceptance that male dancers are going through, and it appears most female dancers, in this forum at any rate, are more than willing to include their male brothers in Dancerhood, if you will.

That being said, I still believe belly dance is in essence feminine, and the dance as done by men is an interesting offshoot of the original middle eastern dances that were done and are done by women. My dears, a woman can dress in a kilt with a sporrain and tuck a skein dhu in her stocking and do the wildest, most heartfelt highland sword dance you can imagine, but traditionally, the kilt is worn only by men and the dance is done by men, and a woman interpreting this dance does not render the original dance anything less than masculine in essence, ancient female Celtic warriors not withstanding.

Women can do traditionally masculine dances and men can do traditionally feminine dances, but the essence of the dance changes with the gender of the dancer. And so what? To preserve the most ancient form of a dance as A'isha strives to do, and blessings on her head for it, does not mean all other forms are unacceptable and should be avoided. A'isha and I disagree on what can legitimately be called belly dance and what needs a new appellation, but I must agree with her re: the cultural femininity of the authentic middle eastern dances.

My two cents worth, with all due respect.

Recnadocir

[quote=Shanazel;6290]
That being said, I still believe belly dance is in essence feminine, and the dance as done by men is an interesting offshoot of the original middle eastern dances that were done and are done by women.

Women can do traditionally masculine dances and men can do traditionally feminine dances, but the essence of the dance changes with the gender of the dancer. QUOTE]

Dear Shanazel, or may I call you "Neanderthal Female," these two sentences would appear to directly contradict each other. Well, at least you got it "half right-" I believe the second statement is quite true!

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Shanazel

You can call me Neanderthal Female if you promise to send Grok to growl sweet nothings and ply me with sheeps.

Actually, the statements don't contridict each other, but I can see how you might interpret them that way. I can technically perform a highland sword dance in full kilt. You can technically perform a middle eastern dance in full bedlah. But neither of us changes the original dance's essence. We are doing offshoots of the original dances, and those offshoots are either masculine or feminine (depending on who's dancing here). The original dance retains the original essence.