Male belly dancers considered "shameful" by ME males - Page 2

Demelza · 08-30-2006, 09:39 AM

Sorry guys ! but I have to agree with A'isha on this one......I do understand that coming from a society where free speach, free will, free expression, free EVERYTHING is the norm, you are under the assumption that anything goes, however I believe that as you are performing what you call 'Belly Dance', you should respect the fact (or at least be aware of the fact) that in parts of the middle east (can't speak for all of it as I've only been to Jordan, Palastine, Libya and Egypt) it is classed as taboo. Even if you were to say that you do respect the roots of the dance and the general middle-eastern view on the subject (as it is 'belly dancing' that you are performing right?), but that you are doing your best to move the feelings towards that of acceptance would be good....but to say that you really don't care, I think is a bit harsh. In my opinion 'Belly Dance' is not a dance of the world, it has strong roots. It is a dance of the middle east and that should not be forgotten. Yes A'isha's right, in Egypt even a female belly dancer is automatically thought to be a Sharmuta (hooker/prostitue) and that can even be said about the greats, the rich, the famous (I'm not saying they are but if you ask any Egyptian they will say that they assume they are).

Having said all this, as I mentioned in another thread, I do see (and enjoy to see) men and boys dancing in clubs, at parties etc. However I have NEVER seen a professional Male dancer there (they might exist I've just never encountered one) and certainly not in makeup and a crop-top. Having said that, maybe there are some that wish they could, but that they can't, I don't know....but as for you guys, That is fine if that is what you want to do, my point is not that you should stop, I've seen some of you dance and I personally am impressed at your skills, but you SHOULD know the roots of the subject in hand, and respect that.

Demelza
xxxx
PS. Jamil, which part of Scotland are you from ? xx

Zorba · 08-30-2006, 04:27 PM

I have to agree with Rico's recent posts here...

For the record, I do indeed have respect for all cultures, including the middle east.

But....

Rico's right. If someone doesn't have respect for me, why should I have respect for them? Its a two way street. From what I read over and over and over again, Belly Dancers in most parts of the middle east are considered whores or otherwise undesireables. To my mind, they are figuratively being spit on.

Fine - then those who are doing the spitting have lost all right to define/complain about Americans/whoever co-opting "their" dance! The collective "they" are doing their very best to WIPE OUT the artform in its native land(s). "They" OBVIOUSLY don't want it - so its up to "us" to take it on (at least until our own "American taliban" religious whackoes succeed in banning it here).

Not only that, but it is my *PERSONAL* feeling that this dance is far older than the current religion/culture/people that are currently extant in the middle east - in other words, "they" didn't create the dance, they merely inherited it. We all know the debate about the origins of the dance - it isn't my intention to reopen that debate here. I think almost all theories have some basis in fact - the world is a big place in time and space.

To bring this thread back on topic - I've had many M.E. males leave the room or look away when I'm performing - and I've also had many M.E. males congratulate/compliment/thank me. Younger ones are particularly accepting - probably because they're "Americanized".

No offense intended to anyone - as always, these are my opinions only.

Salome · 09-01-2006, 04:13 AM

Moderator message
Hello newcomers to this thread, it may seem a bit disjointed, my apologizes. It’s a spin off from another topic that deserves it’s very own thread. Happy posting!

Recnadocir · 09-01-2006, 04:16 AM

Interesting about the younger Arabic males seeming to be more accepting of males belly dancing. Probably more true than with young American males in many parts of the country.

Homophobic? No doubt. And when Tom Rehor and I performed two weeks ago at the LA Convention Center, several of the people got up and left, all Latino from what I can see on the video, mostly 40-ish and older. In each case, it looked liked the male half of the couple was dragging his wife or whatever away. Oh well, there is another traditionally machismo culture. What are you going to do?

Suhad · 09-01-2006, 04:56 AM

That's because they came to see Grak and got you!

Not quite the same! :p

Salome · 09-01-2006, 05:18 AM

Quote:

That's because they came to see Grak and got you! Not quite the same!

I think Grak is available for comment, but he's asked that his fans meet him here

Moon · 09-01-2006, 10:28 AM

Strange so many men immediately think you male dancers are gay... If they see a female troupe perform, why don't they immediately think they are lesbian?

Aisha Azar · 09-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Dear Moon,
This is because belly dance is a feminine essened dance. In Middle Eatern countries, there are some very clear lines between male and female activities. When a male does something that is considered to be a female activity, he is then labeled as "gay' whether or not he is. Unfortunately, homosexuality is consdiered a huge no no and an offense against God, so there is all this other baggage taken into cultural context if one is thought to be gay, as we also see here in western and predominantly Christian countries. To me, this hideous prejudice is what is really shameful and has caused a lot of wonderful people terrible suffering.
Regards,
A'isha

samira shuruk · 09-01-2006, 05:50 PM

I don't think Jamil has made it back yet. From what I understand he is of Lebanese origin, currently living in Australia.

Moon · 09-01-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

To me, this hideous prejudice is what is really shameful and has caused a lot of wonderful people terrible suffering.

I could not agree more with that!

08-30-2006, 09:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
Demelza Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Nottingham, UK Posts: 417	Sorry guys ! but I have to agree with A'isha on this one......I do understand that coming from a society where free speach, free will, free expression, free EVERYTHING is the norm, you are under the assumption that anything goes, however I believe that as you are performing what you call 'Belly Dance', you should respect the fact (or at least be aware of the fact) that in parts of the middle east (can't speak for all of it as I've only been to Jordan, Palastine, Libya and Egypt) it is classed as taboo. Even if you were to say that you do respect the roots of the dance and the general middle-eastern view on the subject (as it is 'belly dancing' that you are performing right?), but that you are doing your best to move the feelings towards that of acceptance would be good....but to say that you really don't care, I think is a bit harsh. In my opinion 'Belly Dance' is not a dance of the world, it has strong roots. It is a dance of the middle east and that should not be forgotten. Yes A'isha's right, in Egypt even a female belly dancer is automatically thought to be a Sharmuta (hooker/prostitue) and that can even be said about the greats, the rich, the famous (I'm not saying they are but if you ask any Egyptian they will say that they assume they are). Having said all this, as I mentioned in another thread, I do see (and enjoy to see) men and boys dancing in clubs, at parties etc. However I have NEVER seen a professional Male dancer there (they might exist I've just never encountered one) and certainly not in makeup and a crop-top. Having said that, maybe there are some that wish they could, but that they can't, I don't know....but as for you guys, That is fine if that is what you want to do, my point is not that you should stop, I've seen some of you dance and I personally am impressed at your skills, but you SHOULD know the roots of the subject in hand, and respect that. Demelza xxxx PS. Jamil, which part of Scotland are you from ? xx Last edited by Demelza; 08-30-2006 at 09:42 AM.

08-30-2006, 04:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	I have to agree with Rico's recent posts here... For the record, I do indeed have respect for all cultures, including the middle east. But.... Rico's right. If someone doesn't have respect for me, why should I have respect for them? Its a two way street. From what I read over and over and over again, Belly Dancers in most parts of the middle east are considered whores or otherwise undesireables. To my mind, they are figuratively being spit on. Fine - then those who are doing the spitting have lost all right to define/complain about Americans/whoever co-opting "their" dance! The collective "they" are doing their very best to WIPE OUT the artform in its native land(s). "They" OBVIOUSLY don't want it - so its up to "us" to take it on (at least until our own "American taliban" religious whackoes succeed in banning it here). Not only that, but it is my PERSONAL feeling that this dance is far older than the current religion/culture/people that are currently extant in the middle east - in other words, "they" didn't create the dance, they merely inherited it. We all know the debate about the origins of the dance - it isn't my intention to reopen that debate here. I think almost all theories have some basis in fact - the world is a big place in time and space. To bring this thread back on topic - I've had many M.E. males leave the room or look away when I'm performing - and I've also had many M.E. males congratulate/compliment/thank me. Younger ones are particularly accepting - probably because they're "Americanized". No offense intended to anyone - as always, these are my opinions only. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

09-01-2006, 04:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
Recnadocir Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: La La Land Posts: 466	Interesting about the younger Arabic males seeming to be more accepting of males belly dancing. Probably more true than with young American males in many parts of the country. Homophobic? No doubt. And when Tom Rehor and I performed two weeks ago at the LA Convention Center, several of the people got up and left, all Latino from what I can see on the video, mostly 40-ish and older. In each case, it looked liked the male half of the couple was dragging his wife or whatever away. Oh well, there is another traditionally machismo culture. What are you going to do? __________________ http://a537.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...0267e2f1c0.jpg *Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!*

09-01-2006, 03:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,516	Males, etc. Dear Moon, This is because belly dance is a feminine essened dance. In Middle Eatern countries, there are some very clear lines between male and female activities. When a male does something that is considered to be a female activity, he is then labeled as "gay' whether or not he is. Unfortunately, homosexuality is consdiered a huge no no and an offense against God, so there is all this other baggage taken into cultural context if one is thought to be gay, as we also see here in western and predominantly Christian countries. To me, this hideous prejudice is what is really shameful and has caused a lot of wonderful people terrible suffering. Regards, A'isha

09-01-2006, 04:13 AM	#13 (permalink)
Salome Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Posts: 1,842	Moderator message Hello newcomers to this thread, it may seem a bit disjointed, my apologizes. It’s a spin off from another topic that deserves it’s very own thread. Happy posting!

09-01-2006, 04:56 AM	#15 (permalink)
Suhad Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 322	That's because they came to see Grak and got you! Not quite the same! :p

09-01-2006, 10:28 AM	#17 (permalink)
Moon V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,642	Strange so many men immediately think you male dancers are gay... If they see a female troupe perform, why don't they immediately think they are lesbian?

09-01-2006, 05:50 PM	#19 (permalink)
samira shuruk Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 47	I don't think Jamil has made it back yet. From what I understand he is of Lebanese origin, currently living in Australia.