Tarik Sultan

In a nutshell, all male performance dance so called folklore and now Oriental are modern inventions to some degree. Nothing like them was seen in the past.

The difference is that with the theater folk dance, there was a specific person in a specific place at a specific time who created something that then became a standard that others have followed,(Redda).

With regards to Oriental dance, as versus Baladi. It developed in a specific location, during a very short specific era, and had specific personalities who were responsible for creating innovations that became the standard that everyone pretty much follows. Male Oriental Dance did not develop in the same ways that these other modern forms did. It developed independently in several locations, at different times, there was no specific place like nightclubs for instance or theaters, and there was no one person who we can look to to say they set a standard as to what it should look like or not look like etc. Therefore your observation is correct.

If we look at the world wide phenomenon of male dancers, some grew out of or were aware of the cultural and social dance which Sharki is based on and their dance may reflect the cultural origins. Others were only exposed to what they saw women performing on stage and had no idea of its cultural background. They just thought it was cool, looked like fun and they wanted to participate. There are all sorts of scenarios. This is why there is no consensus as to gender expression for men. Some men are very feminine in their presentation as far as costuming and expression. There is because men see it as a vehicle to express and come to terms with a homosexual identity. Some men who do this are transvestites, some are gender nonconformists and gender bending for them is making a statement. Some men, because they had no exposure to the root dances or the cultural context have no idea what a man looks like when he dances. They have had female teacher and are very good at imitation, to the point where they not only mimic the movements, but the emotional expressions of their teacher, which when done by a man, looks effeminate.

Some men have gone in the complete opposite direction. Because they don't know the root dance and never saw men dancing socially in culture, they perceive anything graceful in the dance as being womanly and so they avoid it. They approach the dance from their own cultural perspective where male dance is not supposed to have graceful emotional or sensual qualities. It comes off looking stiff angular and unnatural to anyone familiar with the culture. Some people in the culture, because of the colonialist stereotype that all Arab men are gay or bisexual, have become super sensitized to the point where they steer clear of anything that might be misunderstood or perceived as effeminate behavior by outsiders. In Egypt the government has made it an official policy that male government performers, (and all the folk troupes are government run), are forbidden to move the body between the navel and the knees. NO HIP MOVEMENTS.
They have taken everything out that is native and left a skeleton which they fill in with Balletic or other foreign moves.

So this is where we are now. This is why you get such a mixed bag when you look at male dancers because each one is setting their own rules according to their own motivations. This may be changing in Egypt due to Tito, who has arisen in a specific country, in a specific location, at a specific time and has adapted the social dance for his own gender and gender identity in a way that is theatrical, borrowing elements from the female dancers who preceded him, but still expressing it in a way that is perceived by many, (but not all), as still being masculine. There are now quite a few who are following his footsteps in Egypt in costuming and interpretation as well. We will see what the future brings. We are witnessing the evolution of a new development in the dance.

Eve

in a nutshell, good post.

My only question is on the notion of being effeminate and this is possibly where it gets muddled.

If oriental (theatrical not social dancing) is modelled on the womens dance will it not be effeminate by nature? (not saying it does just posing the question).

Are activities masculine/feminine? To me it makes little sense any more than an emotion is masculine/feminine, I don't want to get in to the cultural angle of what's ok here compared the there.

I actually like the diversity it's presented.

Zorba

Ok, first point - I'm not "threatened" - I'm just tired of this debate, because there shouldn't be one.

Second point - obviously I'm not totally understanding your point - so as a result my response would be inappropriate/wrong. Sigh! Let me try again...

My point is simple: There are no "adaptations". The male body takes care of this by itself. It does not look "all the same from the outside" because of the exact point that the male body is built differently from a female body - particularly the hips. That, plus the individuality that any dancer brings to the stage accounts for the different look/energy/feel/whathaveyou.

Again, I'm discussing "Belly Dance" and "Belly Dance" ONLY - I understand (now) that you are not, and I cannot comment on folkloric or other non-"Belly Dance" dance forms.

I hear Tarik, and now you, bringing up the subject of "Role Models" for males. I don't grok. Since "Belly Dance" should not be "adapted", it doesn't matter which gender any potential "Role Models" are. My #1 "Role Model" (I call her my "Dance Idol") is a gal who is even taller than my six feet - as a result of her height, she and I move similarly. Does this mean my dancing looks like hers? Nope, there isn't a prayer of that happening as I'm a different person and my hip structure causes certain moves to look different.

As far as "cutesy girl moves" - you tell me. My philosophy from day one has been "I will fear NO move". As with any other move, you have to have the appropriate emotion behind it for it to look right or as some say to "pull it off". Said emotion will vary between performers, but it must be genuine. Nothing sticks out to an audience like a sore thumb more than insincerity on stage (and this is something I'm still learning). I've done my share of "Cutesy" moves - but I wouldn't consider them a "girl" move as I'm not one. I think its quite impossible for me to do anything that is "feminine" as I'm not - no adaptations needed (or wanted)!

Am I on track with what you're asking/saying (agree or not)?

If I was a bit strident yesterday, I apologize - frankly I was b*tchy yesterday and didn't have a very good day! It didn't start well, and it ended with lemonade spilled on my keyboard. GAK!

Allow me to point out my "dance vision" for myself - it may help you understand where I'm coming from (agreeing or not):

I seek beauty. For myself, and for others. I fell in love with "Belly Dance" because of that beauty. The dance is beautiful, the costuming is beautiful. I'm a huge believer in the centuries forgotten concept of "male beauty". I think Belly Dance is a wide open field for males to find their inner beauty - especially because it has been dominated by females for so long that there are no artificial limits on males (other than the bug-a-boo that we shouldn't be doing it in the first place!). Then there are those who want us to "adapt" or change the dance to create a hitherto non-existent "male version". I don't like that - changing it will destroy it, at least for me. Again, I stress - I'm blabbing on about "Belly Dance" only. This is my vision. This is my quest. This is my life.

There's a boatload of crap about females being free to co-opt anything/everything that is/was "male only" - but not the reverse. I reject that idea - indeed, I reject gender specific ideals altogether - UNLESS! Unless its based on biology. Biology is real, anything else someone MADE UP - it has no basis in "ultimate" reality.

I read somewhere of an Egyptian gentleman who said that when a man gets up to Belly Dance, he's considered a woman for the duration of his dance. Leaving aside for a moment whether or not Egyptians really think this way; I find this fascinating. Last time I checked myself on stage, I hadn't grown boobs or had a gonad inversion - maybe I'm not a good enough dancer for that to happen. Funny thing though, I haven't heard Tarik or any other male dancers complaining about this happening to them either {said in wry, very dry tone}!

Oh, lastly - getting back to the subject of "adaptations". As you might imagine, I'm pretty catty when it comes to male dancers. I watch a "new" one closely to see if he's "adapting" or what I call "masculinizing". Tarik does not. Neither does DaVid. From what I've seen of him, Tito doesn't either - although its sometimes hard to see what he's doing because of his costuming - but I digress. Certain others do, and as a result their dancing looks like a caricature of "masculinity" with little beauty.

Yet another story (then I promise I'll stop rambling and STFU): The first time I was exposed to masculinizing was in a workshop with a well known male instructor. At one point in his choreography, he had the class raise their arms overhead, hands back to back - a common, and beautiful pose. EXCEPT - he wanted the males (there were two of us) to bring our hands together palm-to-palm and clap! Huh? WTF was up with that? I was flabberghasted at this then new to me idea. What did this have to do with the price of beans?

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Zorba

A couple of more comments to Tarik's well thought-out post, written at the same time I was writing that tome, above.

This is pretty close to my point. Said expression, IF genuine, won't be "effeminate" - but if it isn't genuine, it comes off as a caricature of "femininity" - it looks false. That's why its harder for guys to do "cutesy" moves right - most of us aren't cutesy - and we must find an emotional expression that works if we wish to employ those moves. This really isn't any different from a female performer.

I'm definitely what Tarik would call a "Gender non-conformist" - but so-called "gender bending" isn't a statement for me. Indeed, I'm not at all interested in "gender expression" for myself - I'm only interested in "Zorba expression". As a TV reporter said of me once: "Zorba isn't trying to be a man - or a woman - just himself". This guy really did grok me, better than 99% of everyone else.

In my book, "gender bending" is quite impossible without surgery!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

cathy

I don't believe there is anything inherently "feminine" about Raks Sharki, even though most of the original performers of it were women. There are a few mannerism type movements (mostly hands and arms, coy facial expressions) that read as more feminine, culturally speaking. Yes there are physical differences and so certain things are easier for men (or women) and certain movements look different on different bodies.

Take the tennis backhand. I would hazard a guess that more women use the two-armed backhand, possibly because they lack as much upper body strength. Does this mean that the two-armed backhand is "feminine"? I don't think so. Plenty of professional and amateur male tennis players use it too.

As far as the difficulties in men learning how to present themselves in a masculine fashion in Raks Sharki, having mostly women teachers and role models--to me this is no different than women having mostly men teachers and role models for the infinite number of other human activities that were once considered the provenance of men but now--in some cultures anyway--are done by both. Driving cars, playing team sports, playing in Western symphony orchestras, working office jobs, operating machinery, etc. etc. In Shakespeare's time in England, women did not act on stage. I don't see anything inherently "masculine" about acting.

And just to comment on what Morocco says about the movement vocabulary and men & women. She most definitely and very clearly has stated many times in person in my presence and in writing that I have read directly from her, that it is the same for men and women.

As far as men doing Sharki in the past--I haven't seen any of them myself (except Sergio on video) but what about Bert Balladine, Bobby Farrah, and Sergio? Weren't they all performing and teaching in the 1970s?

And this is not Sharki but it does touch on MED and men/women issues. I took an excellent class from Hassan at Ahlan Wa Sahlan last month and he taught assaya, taytihb, and a bit of shemadan. He had no problem doing the traditional women's dances and movements nor teaching us (class was all women) taytihb including insisting that I try spinning the very heavy and large stick with my nondominant hand (I'm left-handed) whereas I was actually terrified that I would lose control and hurt someone. I must have looked very "girly" with my eyes closed and squealing.....He was great.

Cathy

Zorba

Exactly Cathy, exactly.

Thank you.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Caroline_afifi

I think it perhpas a different learning curve for women whom have trained alongside men. When you have not and have had limited experience, it produces a whole lot of questions.
Most of what i have seen, is cultural dance ie. Palestinian dance troupes. Saudi male dance troupes and Yemeni male dance troupes. The womens dance is considered different and seperate and there is some mixing occasionaly with Yemeni dance but there are distict differences in other areas.

Belly dance is of course a different matter but alot is still perceived as being a female activity, despite being a social dance for both men and women within the same culture.

What happens within a dance festival and dance community is not always indictive of the wider culture.

cathy

Hi Caroline,

I realize that in the Arabic world as a whole and in large sections of the Oriental dance world inside and outside Egypt, Oriental dance is perceived as a female activity. No coincidence that there were only a handful of male students at AWS and only one performed onstage and it was a comedy number.

I will clarify to say that I don’t see anything feminine about the dance form in itself. Agreed, it can be done in a feminine manner (by women or men). It can also be done in other manners—fun, dramatic, cute, coy, sweet, sexy, etc.

And agreed, a role in a play can be played feminine or masculine. Again I meant the actual occupation or pastime of acting is not in itself masculine or feminine.

By physical differences I meant men usually have narrower hips, wider shoulders, no breasts, a higher center of gravity, longer legs. A person with narrow hips might have to put more “umph” in it to get a side-to-side hip movement to show up visually than someone with wider hips. A shoulder shimmy looks different on someone with breasts vs. without. That’s what I meant. As to the culturally interpreted differences—more wrist and finger movements, hands emphasizing curves of body, open mouth or pooching out lips, batting eyelashes, etc.--are considered more “feminine” but I think all this, while deeply ingrained in our culture, is in fact only cultural and there is nothing innately feminine about these or any dance movements. (I have read some arguments about women being built for carrying and men for hunting or whatever, but the effect of that on dance would be subtle)

I gather that hip movements are considered by many in Egypt “feminine” at least when done on stage. Again, I would say that this is a cultural standard and there is nothing innately “feminine” about hip movement. If it’s physically possible on a human body of either gender, it’s a human movement. Maybe it stems from the fact that wide hips are a secondary sexual characteristic for women, and thus it’s considered alluring for women to draw attention to this. I don’t know though….men need to have some hip mobility for the survival of the species too!

I don’t equate strength with dance either, or not very much (I will say there are some things I can’t do and I wonder whether they are strength related. Hip drops into very deep knee bends and then gradually up again for instance. Tarik and Tito are very good at these but maybe it’s not because they are men? I don’t know.) I used the tennis backhand example to show that while there could be a difference in the way men and women typically approach this movement (for whatever reason) I don’t consider one variation of the movement innately “feminine.”

All I can say about teaching movement in Sharki and its appropriateness for men and women is that I have had both a woman and a man teacher for years now and I have never had any doubt or confusion as to whether any of the movement vocabulary might not be suitable for both—because they both use the same movement vocabulary. I guess this must have affected my entire approach and “learning curve” as you say.

Let me turn the question around. If you see Sharki as a feminine form, what is it (aside from the fact that more women do it) that makes it so?

Cathy

Zorba

Cathy - you're saying what I've been blabbing on about for years - but you're doing it far more succinctly than I ever have!

Thank you.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

jenc

Just been to an african dance workshop led by the band Zambula. They are great. Lots of ommi type movements - which the men did with far more oomph than the woman. OK so that's not BD
My first teacher was a tiny little thing, with what I would call a feminine style. lots of relevee, tiny steps, delicate movements. she once called me an elephant for taking larger steps when learning a move. I would have called it a difference in interpretation!!

I didn't identify with this style. I find myself far more drawn to Tito as a model (except when he does the bits that I consider masculine eg the squats).
don't know if i am making myself clear. What Ii am trying to say is: I don't consider the moves to be feminine or masculine in themselves - what may be gendered or perhaps just related to personality. I certainly have never considered myself to be a feminine woman, if measured against the usual western cultural signifiers. i can't do cute to save my life - yet no one is going to say that I am dancing in a masculine style because I don't do that stuff.
What I'm trying to say is that anything that might be cosidered masculine or feminine in BD is not a necessary part of the dance, and could well be things that most dancers of either sex would not do, cute winsome expressions, versus displays of strength for example.
This does not mean that I am going to leave open the option of going back to the BD is feminine argument. If you are a physical, sensual, emotional dancer yor essence will show through. The awareness of his (masculine) body is what makes me say that Tito is not displaying feminine essence. (That's his awareness by the way - sigh-) I aspire to show my female esssence one day, but not by doing feminine moves!!!