How much is too much? - Page 8

Zorba · 07-16-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

So the movement vocabulary is the same as a womans?

Of course it is! Even Morocco says so.

Caroline_afifi · 07-16-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

It seems to me that most of them taught women and maybe a few men here and there?

I'd say most of them were taught by women. I don't think the majority of men dancing are teachers. This is the case with me. Morocco was my teacher. I learned the movements from her, but then experimented on my own to see how to execute them in a way that complimented my personality and body. There were certain gestures she would do that didn't compliment me as a guy at all. Mostly cutsy things around the face , "look how cute I am", or gestures used to show what a nice figure I have, those sort of things. I teach now and mostly women. I don't teach my students to be feminine, because they already are. I do teach them to be sensual and expressive with their entire bodies and arms and hands and to do the movements with feeling behind them. When we dance, we both look sensual, but on them, it looks feminine on me it looks masculine. The reason is because we are both relaxed and so our natural essence expresses itself.

Ok, so here is an example of you leaving certain elements out rather than parroting. This is what as I was reffering to earlier and also refer to as adapting.

Quote:

Here is the big question.
Til now, have male dancers (who have been around a long time) really been about progressing mens dance or just progressing dance in general (and mostly aimed at women as this is where the business is)?

I think it depends on the individual. There hasn't been that much participation my men for them to try to develop a "men's style" per say. I think they perhaps focus on expressing themselves as men on stage in their personal dance, but in general, they are more concerned with the progression of the dance. I personally don't "AIM" my classes at anyone. They are open to whoever wants to come. Just so happens that they are mostly women.

I tend to agree as my instinct tells me it is about the individual and discssions on this forum have helped challenge my own stereotypes (some based on experience).

Quote:

My experience of some male teachers who visited the UK, is they were not about 'mens dancing' but about teaching women to dance as a business making money.

Oh I feel another 10 lashes coming..

Good question. Well, we have to serve our clientele. There are very few men in the field now. If you are making your living from dance, then yes, you have to be business minded just like any other dancer. So I don't think its a case of "teaching women for money" as it is they make their money teaching dance. The overwhelming majority of the clientele happens to be women, the same as it is in every other dance field except perhaps Hip-Hop.

I hear a handful of names come up again and again, is this because they are very famous or there are not many around?

I have to say though... I dont think that is the case these days but I think it does still exsist and money and fame is the motivation for some... still.

Not everyone gets into dance because they are artistically motivated. Some are more ego cases than others, like anything else in life. In my case, had I had a bigger ego, I'd probably have a much stronger career at this point.

Yes, totally.

Quote:

... yes and I know this is the case for women too but they are women teaching women.

Doesn't make a difference. How is this different just because the person is a woman? For that matter, how is it different from men who teach women Ballet, Jazz, or Modern?

It does to me. I really hate the idea that men would come into this dance just to make a fast buck out of women. Yes, women do it to but it annoys me more if it is men.

There are people in the world who see the interest in this dance and how crazy women are about it.. the first thing they think of is how they too can get a slice of the pie.
They have no interest in the dance or respect for the women. I have had many heated discussion with individuals who dared to say this infront of me. I have heard people take the p*** out of the western women who do this dance and in the same breath plan a money making scheme. Women have to work harder as they have more people to compete against.

Caroline_afifi · 07-16-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Of course it is! Even Morocco says so.

Eh?? and who says??

what are you basing this knowledge on... as a matter of interest?

Zorba · 07-16-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Eh?? and who says??

what are you basing this knowledge on... as a matter of interest?

First and foremost - personal vision. There is NO way ANYONE is going to tell me that I can't employ the whole dance vocabulary. I'm a human being, and reserve the right to dance like one!

Realizing that won't be good enough for most folks, I can back it up by pointing at Tarik, who is backed up by Morocco - who has forgotten more about Belly Dance than you and I put together will ever know.

Lastly, look at the videos Tarik posts - there are plenty of others - and if that isn't good enough, watch some middle eastern men dance in person sometime. I once took a class from a "Mohammed" - a Moroccan 20-something who could move like no-one I've seen before or since! Totally un-gendered, the guy didn't have any bones I'll swear. I think his spine had been surgically removed. Shoulder shimmies to die for among other things.

The rest are a bunch of stupid rulebooks - if I paid attention to all of them, they'd be no dance left. Forget that - I'm a Belly Dancer and hold my head up proud.

Caroline_afifi · 07-16-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

First and foremost - personal vision. There is NO way ANYONE is going to tell me that I can't employ the whole dance vocabulary. I'm a human being, and reserve the right to dance like one!

Realizing that won't be good enough for most folks, I can back it up by pointing at Tarik, who is backed up by Morocco - who has forgotten more about Belly Dance than you and I put together will ever know.

Lastly, look at the videos Tarik posts - there are plenty of others - and if that isn't good enough, watch some middle eastern men dance in person sometime. I once took a class from a "Mohammed" - a Moroccan 20-something who could move like no-one I've seen before or since! Totally un-gendered, the guy didn't have any bones I'll swear. I think his spine had been surgically removed. Shoulder shimmies to die for among other things.

The rest are a bunch of stupid rulebooks - if I paid attention to all of them, they'd be no dance left. Forget that - I'm a Belly Dancer and hold my head up proud.

Zorba,
please dont hide behind other people or make assumptions about individual knowledge.
What someone or anyone has forgotton maybe more than I know, but what i know maybe the one thing they dont.

I am not going to tell you what to do so you dont ever have to worry.
You defend what you do as dance but perhaps what you do is not Middle Eastern? I dont know, I have not seen you dance and you can dance with fairy bells on for all I care, doesnt mnake it MED though and that is what I am discussing here.
I am having a discussion and there is nothing wrong with that. Better to shout out your thoughts as at least they can be tackled rather than keep them in and pass yourself off as perfect. If it is out in the open then it is open to change. Others peoples amount of knowledge is not going to stop me questioning or having an opinion.
So backed by me and backed by myself and my own experience I will leave it at that!

So, till now I dont think ME dance steps/vocabulary are all same for men and women just because you want it to be. Some maybe, but there are also some moves which are usually performed by men and vice versa.There are steps for men and women in all aspects of dance and the ME is no different.

Pirika Repun · 07-16-2008, 06:29 PM

Tarik's quote:

"I do teach them to be sensual and expressive with their entire bodies and arms and hands and to do the movements with feeling behind them. When we dance, we both look sensual, but on them, it looks feminine on me it looks masculine. The reason is because we are both relaxed and so our natural essence expresses itself. "

I understand your point of express feeling behind it, and I agree with you. This is not only Oriental Dance, but all kinds of dances. I did when I dance Jazz or Hip-Hop.

Ok, my question is Oriental Dance or Belly Dance has to be "sensual"? Maybe I have different feeling for sensuality than you say, maybe because of my native language is not English, when I heard word "sensual" I kind of imagine more sexual (or directly sex) than feelings. I'm sure your mean of sensual id not sex. Also, I'm not totally understand or do not know about history of Oriental Dance, so I was wandering this dance has to be sensual or feminine? You as a man, I’m sure you have different sense of sensuality than women. Can you explain what the difference or how you distinguish it? When I see your dance, I don’t feel feminine, but I feel beauty and gracefulness. I feel for Tito the same way, except when he wears tight street cloth and dance in the video clip.

I kind of confusing about sensuality….

Oriental Dance is still new to me, and I'm learning..... Sista need ya help bro!

Zorba · 07-16-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

There are steps for men and women in all aspects of dance and the ME is no different.

Ah, but of course its different. MEN DANCE THE SAME WAY. Period. I've seen it with my own eyes, multiple times in multiple venues. Why do you think I'm so attracted to this dance form? Partially because there are no stupid gender differences.

I'm not hiding behind anyone - the TRUTH of the matter is that those who know these things far more than I do state the same thing. Not that I care - I'd be saying the same thing anyway, but its nice to have some support!

The only ones who don't are one of three types: 1) Insecure men who feel the need to distance themselves from anything they perceive as "feminine"; 2) The occasional woman who wants to keep men in our little, constrained "male boxes"; or 3) those who honesty don't know any better.

The definition of "masculinity" by the first two of the afore mentioned types is "That which is not feminine". I'm sorry, but I'll resist that type of thinking to my dying breath!

Yes, there are male/female specific FOLKLORIC dances - I'm not discussing those, nor do I dance them. I'm talking about the social dance that evolved into the performance art we call "Belly Dance" - which is what I do.

Watch videos of Tarik, Tito, DaVid, or other "good" male dancer - they change nothing - yet they come across as male for the simple fact that they are males with a male's body. Shoot, go to my site and watch MY videos - if you promise not to laugh at my relatively meager dance skills - I omit NOTHING, I just (try to) dance from my heart.

You have to understand, I've had this debate many times before - and here's where I'm coming from: If you start looking for a so-called "masculine" version of the dance - you'll find nothing but stupid rulebooks which mean nothing. I've read/heard from various sources that males shouldn't: shimmy, do side-to-side hip movements, hold their arms in a fluid manner (THAT old chestnut has just cropped up in a different thread right here!), dance on the diagonal, do undulations, wear a 2 piece costume (why not? Its a western/Hollywood invention anyways), do veilwork (!), use Isis wings, dance with a crooked cane (folkloric reference), perform Shemadan (ditto), have soft and supple wrists/hands, zagharoot, or do skirtwork. What's left?

Of these, only the skirtwork ban makes any sense whatsoever - even though its just as artificial as everything else in the list (and yes, I do that too. No-one's mistaken me for a woman yet!).

The fact of the matter is that "Belly Dance" can be viewed as an artificial construct that - as Tarik will tell you - was created to showcase women's beauty. Fine. I say that what showcases a woman's beauty will also showcase a man's beauty in the same way - it is, after all, just a human body. The only visual difference is boobage and the lack of same for us men - that's reality based on biology. Otherwise, everything else works and is gender free in the ULTIMATE sense.

IN MY EXPERIENCE: Males who start worrying about so-called "masculinity" end up looking like caricatures of same. All a guy needs to do is go dance as HIMSELF and not worry about it - his inherent nature and his body will take care of the so-called gender issues. This is why Tarik, DaVid, Tito, et al are such wonderful dancers - they dance as themselves and don't worry about stupid rulebooks or so-called "male roles" - they're dancing the "human role".

And yes, as Tarik will tell you, I'm an idealist. Not everyone is ready to accept ULTIMATE reality - but the world won't change without idealism.

Zorba · 07-16-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirika Repun

When I see your (Tarik's) dance, I don’t feel feminine, but I feel beauty and gracefulness.

Which is exactly my point.

Caroline_afifi · 07-17-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Ah, but of course its different. MEN DANCE THE SAME WAY. Period. I've seen it with my own eyes, multiple times in multiple venues. Why do you think I'm so attracted to this dance form? Partially because there are no stupid gender differences.

I'm not hiding behind anyone - the TRUTH of the matter is that those who know these things far more than I do state the same thing. Not that I care - I'd be saying the same thing anyway, but its nice to have some support!

The only ones who don't are one of three types: 1) Insecure men who feel the need to distance themselves from anything they perceive as "feminine"; 2) The occasional woman who wants to keep men in our little, constrained "male boxes"; or 3) those who honesty don't know any better.

The definition of "masculinity" by the first two of the afore mentioned types is "That which is not feminine". I'm sorry, but I'll resist that type of thinking to my dying breath!

Yes, there are male/female specific FOLKLORIC dances - I'm not discussing those, nor do I dance them. I'm talking about the social dance that evolved into the performance art we call "Belly Dance" - which is what I do.

Watch videos of Tarik, Tito, DaVid, or other "good" male dancer - they change nothing - yet they come across as male for the simple fact that they are males with a male's body. Shoot, go to my site and watch MY videos - if you promise not to laugh at my relatively meager dance skills - I omit NOTHING, I just (try to) dance from my heart.

You have to understand, I've had this debate many times before - and here's where I'm coming from: If you start looking for a so-called "masculine" version of the dance - you'll find nothing but stupid rulebooks which mean nothing. I've read/heard from various sources that males shouldn't: shimmy, do side-to-side hip movements, hold their arms in a fluid manner (THAT old chestnut has just cropped up in a different thread right here!), dance on the diagonal, do undulations, wear a 2 piece costume (why not? Its a western/Hollywood invention anyways), do veilwork (!), use Isis wings, dance with a crooked cane (folkloric reference), perform Shemadan (ditto), have soft and supple wrists/hands, zagharoot, or do skirtwork. What's left?

Of these, only the skirtwork ban makes any sense whatsoever - even though its just as artificial as everything else in the list (and yes, I do that too. No-one's mistaken me for a woman yet!).

The fact of the matter is that "Belly Dance" can be viewed as an artificial construct that - as Tarik will tell you - was created to showcase women's beauty. Fine. I say that what showcases a woman's beauty will also showcase a man's beauty in the same way - it is, after all, just a human body. The only visual difference is boobage and the lack of same for us men - that's reality based on biology. Otherwise, everything else works and is gender free in the ULTIMATE sense.

IN MY EXPERIENCE: Males who start worrying about so-called "masculinity" end up looking like caricatures of same. All a guy needs to do is go dance as HIMSELF and not worry about it - his inherent nature and his body will take care of the so-called gender issues. This is why Tarik, DaVid, Tito, et al are such wonderful dancers - they dance as themselves and don't worry about stupid rulebooks or so-called "male roles" - they're dancing the "human role".

And yes, as Tarik will tell you, I'm an idealist. Not everyone is ready to accept ULTIMATE reality - but the world won't change without idealism.

Zorba,
Sorry to say but this all sounds like you are shooting off the hip. Anything I have said or asked about should be read in conext and understood in context to other things I have said. I dont take one thing you have said and start TALKING IN CAPTIAL letters without having some idea of the context.

Some aspects of Middle Eastern Dance are the same movement and some are not. Most of what you see maybe informal, is this what you are talking about?
I am talking about performance and having a thought out discussion with someone like Tarik and (like many others on this board who will indulge me in this). The discussion for me, was about how men translate dance into a theatre art in styles were there have been no previous male role models as this sort of performance did not exsist. I was asking questions about how it is adapted. If it was like you saisd then it would all look the same from the outside and it really does not. Traik does not do 'cutesy girly' moves. Do you?

There is no need to tell me to look at youtube clips of men doing informal dance as I have seen this in abundence for most of my adult life 9and have forgotton probably more than you have seen).
I am interested to see how performance based dance is being performed and interpreted around the world by other male dancers who are working this into a stage craft (and decades after women started doing it). I am interested in this development and what it means and how it translates, and whether or not it retains cultural connections and do people actually care??

If you are talking about no differences in the way you were taught then I really cannot comment. But as someone who programmes groups of artists from Lebanon, Palestine, Morocco, Algeria etc. then I know MIDDLE EASTERN dance has a male /female vocabulary as well as many many movements which are exactly the same. There are movements in Saaidi which woman did not tradtionally do. I am talking about all aspects of ME dance not just 'Belly dance'. My perspective on dance is much wider than that.

This is not about sexism in genders, boxes or any other label you want to slap onto something or someone who does not agree with you.
Defensive people are so quick to slap put downs on people who threaten them and make them smaller some way. I have not dont this to you, but you want to belittle my experience, knowledge base and thought process.. go ahead, I really dont give a toss. I have more respect for the people who want to work through issues that arise rather than shout your own opinions so loud you think others may run away and hide. Not me.

Eve · 07-17-2008, 01:24 PM

interesting thread. Can I try and cobble together what I've read without the micro arguments?

Are we agreed - That there are dances (movements), costumes that have been traditionally male/female.

The males now dancing oriental (compared to what we tend to class a folkloric like saiidi) on stage rather than socially, there isn't really a precedent for? Therefore they're making there own 'rules' to suit themselves and as such it's a matter of taste?

07-16-2008, 06:29 PM	#76 (permalink)
Pirika Repun Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: In da hood BK! Posts: 205	Sensuality Tarik's quote: "I do teach them to be sensual and expressive with their entire bodies and arms and hands and to do the movements with feeling behind them. When we dance, we both look sensual, but on them, it looks feminine on me it looks masculine. The reason is because we are both relaxed and so our natural essence expresses itself. " I understand your point of express feeling behind it, and I agree with you. This is not only Oriental Dance, but all kinds of dances. I did when I dance Jazz or Hip-Hop. Ok, my question is Oriental Dance or Belly Dance has to be "sensual"? Maybe I have different feeling for sensuality than you say, maybe because of my native language is not English, when I heard word "sensual" I kind of imagine more sexual (or directly sex) than feelings. I'm sure your mean of sensual id not sex. Also, I'm not totally understand or do not know about history of Oriental Dance, so I was wandering this dance has to be sensual or feminine? You as a man, I’m sure you have different sense of sensuality than women. Can you explain what the difference or how you distinguish it? When I see your dance, I don’t feel feminine, but I feel beauty and gracefulness. I feel for Tito the same way, except when he wears tight street cloth and dance in the video clip. I kind of confusing about sensuality…. Oriental Dance is still new to me, and I'm learning..... Sista need ya help bro!

07-17-2008, 01:24 PM	#80 (permalink)
Eve Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 139	interesting thread. Can I try and cobble together what I've read without the micro arguments? Are we agreed - That there are dances (movements), costumes that have been traditionally male/female. The males now dancing oriental (compared to what we tend to class a folkloric like saiidi) on stage rather than socially, there isn't really a precedent for? Therefore they're making there own 'rules' to suit themselves and as such it's a matter of taste?