Tarik Sultan

I think the issues of costuming will be as complex as the same issue for women. I feel that different people want different things from a costume. Some Want to make a statement about the dance and others want to say it about themselves. Some manage to blend both very well.
As there has been no real tradition in costuming (outside of traditional dancing for men) I think it it perhaps even more difficult for men to find something which reflects both.

I don't think so. I think we have a lot more options. I haven't seen Shafik dance, but I've seen pictures of him and he seems to like a more modern jazzy look rather than trying to reflect the past culture. Khaled, I really can't tell you. I like him in the gallabeya, but his other styles leave me cold. Tito and the guys who are dancing in Egypt now seem to like the traditional gallabeya, slightly altered for dance in that they are more flowing than the usual gallabeya. This is a reflection of modern men's wear and what they look like when they dance socially, for those who still wear traditional outfits. They have solved the problem by simply wearing what men traditionally wear. It works in their cultural context where too much beads and sequins and fringe is viewed as too similar to the women's outfits. Outside of the Middle East though, for a Western audience, this look wouldn't go over as well. They want drama and skin.

Raqs sharqi is a stylised performance originally performed by women in costumes from a certain era.

Well yes and no. The costume we're use to now was a western fantasy invention that they adopted in the 20's and 30's. So if you look to the same source for inspiration that they did, Hollywood, what you get for guys is bare chest, vest or jacket, turban and shalwar. Its just that the male fantasy costume is in fact based in actual Ottoman style, (except no man would have been caught dead running around without a shirt in public). Part of the problem is figuring out how to take this basic outline and make it flashier for a guy without looking girly. .... But then again, ... some guys DO want to look girly, so go figure.

Men do not have these same examples to follow.

In that they have had no institution like a stage or nightclub tradition, yes, that's true

The same with classical dance, it has to be stylised in some way for men and adapted or it will look like a female dance... wont it?

Yes. I assume you mean Ballet when you say classical? There was a very long battle for men to find acceptance in ballet because it had come to be regarded as a woman's dance. So yes, in classical ballet they did develop a style to show off the characteristics of the male body and persona. In costuming they based the top on period dress for men, while on the bottom they just wore tights and for some reason a hell of a lot of padding in the neather regions

This is what i mean by stylised for the International belly dance scene. It is not something which has cultural roots and is perhaps a modern development.

Yes I understand, but as I pointed out, the so called theater folklore is also modern and has even less cultural roots because there is nothing about the vocabulary or spirit of that style that is rooted in the culture. You could take a male dancer from anywhere in the world, teach him that choreography and he'll be able to do it. There is nothing about it in essence that is uniquely Egyptian. Sharki, male and female, as well as "folkloric" styles are all modern developments.

Shafeek did not perform in this style til he moved to the UK, his early performances were all Folkloric from what i saw and he has adapted and changed to meet the needs of the International scene who often expect much more. I think he is also enjoying the freedom to experiment with a variety of styles and fusion too.[/quote]


Yes, I know that. But what I want to know is what you think of his Oriental dance style. Do you see a reflection of the culture in his movement vocabulary and over all spirit the same way you do when you see Tito dance?

Caroline_afifi

Yes, I know that. But what I want to know is what you think of his Oriental dance style. Do you see a reflection of the culture in his movement vocabulary and over all spirit the same way you do when you see Tito dance?[/quote]

The Truth is I have not seen him do it yet!
I hear from others he is very good so i shall see on Thursday and get back to you on that one.

Tarik Sultan

Oh. Thought you did. Okay, get back to me, I'm curious. As for guys dancing. There seems to be some sort of development happening in Egypt. I don't know what's sparked it, but there are a lot of singers now using back up boy dancers. Of course it isn't Oriental. It's baladi and they're wearing regular clothes, but 10yrs ago you would never have seen anything like this in a performance venue. Rico, Saad, Amina all have boys dancing in the audiences and on stage behind them while they're singing. Asmahan, or was it Randa, also had a bunch of boy dancers shaking their cakes in the audience. And contrary to what he's like people to believe, Tito isn't the only male Oriental dancer anymore. Although none of the ones i've seen can match him in skill or charisma.

Zorba

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

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Caroline_afifi

Yes, there has been subtle and not so subtle changes happening for some time now.
It is Asmahan who has a bunch of boys dancing before and with her and so did Khaled at the last Nile Group festival. I was reading about it on Lorna Gow's blog (dancer on Nile Pharoah).

I am not personally into this sort of pantomime stuff but Egyptians seem to like it as they love this stuff at weddings.
From what I have seen of these male dancers there is no hip movement and it is all that arabeque stuff with turns and bored expressions on their faces.

There will be plenty of male dancers hot on Tito's heels I am sure. I already told you about Mero.

Back to costuming, the Era from the 20's/30's and 40's was not so much a 'fantasy' based costume but the cocktail/soiree inspired dress cut in the Middle (some not). I dont think the Turkish pants and some of the other costumes match the period of Leylet Hob either.

I am not a fan of Ali Babba and Aladin inspired costumes and the I dream of Jeanie equivelant. There are too many negative stereotypes attached to these images by the West over years. Sinbad... Sindebaad. Disney and other movie groups have had a field day (particularly Cannon Cinema) vilifying the image of Arabs for children and families in the name of family fun and entertainment. You must catch the Documentary film called 'Reel bad Arabs' (by Simon Shaheen's father), it would really shock people as to how much brainwashing goes on through cinema.

Back to men dancing. If there is potential for mens dance to be diluted and move further away from it;s cultural roots as there are few few role models.
This often gives way to filling in the gaps and loose interpretations.
I think it is easier for men to create more in the modern context and take on big songs but no one is doing it yet. From what i see it is becoming a bit like what women did in the ealier years in the UK which was collect a mish mash of styles in one dance.

By the way Tarik, I watched your clips again and noticed how you deliberately leave out certain movements. I get the feeling this is about not 'parroting' womens dance? I think you are right to do so actually because mens dance is still in it's infancy, and still yet to be agreed and defined?

Whilst there have been many men dancing for years in America, I am interested to what they did exactly and how those styles varied and how connected to the culture they were (meaning mens).
It seems to me that most of them taught women and maybe a few men here and there?

Here is the big question.
Til now, have male dancers (who have been around a long time) really been about progressing mens dance or just progressing dance in general (and mostly aimed at women as this is where the business is)?

My experience of some male teachers who visited the UK, is they were not about 'mens dancing' but about teaching women to dance as a business making money.

Oh I feel another 10 lashes coming..

I have to say though... I dont think that is the case these days but I think it does still exsist and money and fame is the motivation for some... still.

... yes and I know this is the case for women too but they are women teaching women.

Pirika Repun

Hey Tarik!

"However, what he was wearing was something that I had in mind for a costume. Rhinestone studded jeans and belt, hip scarf, fitted rhinestone tee shirt. Not sure what to do with the head yet. "

How about "Feather Headdress" like West Indian Parade? Or, Dread locks wig like Rasta ? I'm kidding.... Maybe just du-rug, scull cap, or bandana? But I want to see you have short dread locks Not long dreads, but short dreads like this one...Maybe not....

Tarik Sultan

[quote=Caroline_afifi;79529]
I am not personally into this sort of pantomime stuff but Egyptians seem to like it as they love this stuff at weddings.
From what I have seen of these male dancers there is no hip movement and it is all that arabeque stuff with turns and bored expressions on their faces.

Oh god no, I'm not talking about that god awful stuff. I mean they are really dancing Baladi. Not the tired stuff I swore to god I'd cut my feet off before I ever got caught dead doing. Last time I saw Asmahan she had the guys doing the balletic crap, but the next year they were in the audience on all the tables shaking their hips and dancing with the audience.

There will be plenty of male dancers hot on Tito's heels I am sure. I already told you about Mero.

Back to costuming, the Era from the 20's/30's and 40's was not so much a 'fantasy' based costume but the cocktail/soiree inspired dress cut in the Middle (some not). I dont think the Turkish pants and some of the other costumes match the period of Leylet Hob either.

There is no period costume for this dance. The costume is total theatre. The bedlah with the bra top and dance belt with the split skirt is a fantasy inspired costume. Regardless of what style, it's theatre not something based on what Egyptian women or any woman actually wore in the Middle East at any time. When I say period, I mean something based in a historical time period of the region. It has nothing to do with dance per say, just that the outfit men typically wear is a modification of what men did wear in Ottoman times. This was way before the development of Oriental dance. However, as a dance costume, it does work.

I am not a fan of Ali Babba and Aladin inspired costumes and the I dream of Jeanie equivelant.

Its not that these are Sinbad outfits. They are based on real dress of a certain period. Hollywood co-opted them. The I dream of Jeanie outfit is actually based on what Ottoman women wore in the home. The difference being that in real life, there was no skin showing. The top consisted of a long shirt with flowing sleeves, over which was worn a tight fitting vest that closed under the bust line. On the head they wore a pill box hat with a veil attached, (no pony tail sticking through the top). The bottom was very full shalwar and around the waist they wore a shawl.

There are too many negative stereotypes attached to these images by the West over years. Sinbad... Sindebaad. Disney and other movie groups have had a field day (particularly Cannon Cinema) vilifying the image of Arabs for children and families in the name of family fun and entertainment. You must catch the Documentary film called 'Reel bad Arabs' (by Simon Shaheen's father), it would really shock people as to how much brainwashing goes on through cinema.

Yes, I know. And being a person of African descent, I know this sort of thing from first hand experience. I have to live with it every day. So, yes, when I saw it being done to Arabs I recognized it for what it was. Reel Bad Arabs was a great documentary. I wish they would show it more often.

Back to men dancing. If there is potential for mens dance to be diluted and move further away from it;s cultural roots as there are few few role models.
This often gives way to filling in the gaps and loose interpretations.
I think it is easier for men to create more in the modern context and take on big songs but no one is doing it yet. From what i see it is becoming a bit like what women did in the ealier years in the UK which was collect a mish mash of styles in one dance.

Not sure what you mean here, but men are dancing to the classics. I do, Tito does and I'm sure others do too. The problem of lack of roll models is a real one, but with the internet and more exposure, this is no longer the case. Its not perfect, but at least there is far more visibility now than when I started out. The problem though where it exists, is the misperception that men do not dance with their hips in the culture. This gets reenforced by people like Redda who were not able to choreograph for men using the real movements because the establishment has a policy that men are not allowed to move their hips on stage. I've been told this first hand by Redda dancers and Atef farag who is not the head of the Redda troupe. The reason why? It goes back to the reel bad Arab stereotypes. With the Western colonizers creating the stereotype of the bisexual Arab. BEcause hip movements are perceived by the West as feminine, the status quo is afraid that men shaking their hips will play into the stereotype and so seek to avoid it at all costs. This is partly the reason why Reddas male choreographies have no hip-movements and you see those guys strutting around looking half dead. However, guys like Tito are a challenge to that. Saad not only dances full out in his concerts, he has a whole bunch of guys dancing full out behind him on stage and all throughout the audience, so something is changing because this was unheard of 10yrs ago.

By the way Tarik, I watched your clips again and noticed how you deliberately leave out certain movements. I get the feeling this is about not 'parroting' womens dance? I think you are right to do so actually because mens dance is still in it's infancy, and still yet to be agreed and defined?

I don't leave out any movements. You have to keep in mind that when you see a video clip, you're not seeing a person's full movement vocabulary. I don't show all the moves that I can do in any performance. My dance is not movement motivated, its musical interpretation motivated. Therefore, I choose the movements that I feel best express the music of the song, rather than movements that I think will be impressive. The way I carry and express myself is different than that of a woman, but that's about it.

Tarik Sultan

Whilst there have been many men dancing for years in America, I am interested to what they did exactly and how those styles varied and how connected to the culture they were (meaning mens).

It depends on the individual. As far as how culturally connected it was/is? Its no different than what you see with the women. Some do what has been called the American nightclub style. Its a mixture of Arabic, Greek and Turkish. A generic style that developed in the ethnic clubs here because people from all these communities were interacting with each other in a way they wouldn't have back home. Some dance in the Tribal style, some dance in the Tribal fusion style, some in the Gothic style.... Its only now that people are beginning to really learn what real Egyptian style is. Only one I know doing it are myself and Jim Boz. Mark I think leans more to Lebanese, but his style is decidedly feminine. I think with exposure to dancers like Tito this will change. The problem is that because they haven't seen the way Egyptian men express themselves through dance, they are unaware of the possibilities available to them. They don't know how to use their arms and hands, or if there are some hip movements they can do or not do. This is one of the reasons why I created my playlists and favorites on youtube just showing men dancing, mostly social dance, although my Tito video was instrumental in introducing him to the world. Its got the most hits of any video on him on youtube.

It seems to me that most of them taught women and maybe a few men here and there?

I'd say most of them were taught by women. I don't think the majority of men dancing are teachers. This is the case with me. Morocco was my teacher. I learned the movements from her, but then experimented on my own to see how to execute them in a way that complimented my personality and body. There were certain gestures she would do that didn't compliment me as a guy at all. Mostly cutsy things around the face , "look how cute I am", or gestures used to show what a nice figure I have, those sort of things. I teach now and mostly women. I don't teach my students to be feminine, because they already are. I do teach them to be sensual and expressive with their entire bodies and arms and hands and to do the movements with feeling behind them. When we dance, we both look sensual, but on them, it looks feminine on me it looks masculine. The reason is because we are both relaxed and so our natural essence expresses itself.

Here is the big question.
Til now, have male dancers (who have been around a long time) really been about progressing mens dance or just progressing dance in general (and mostly aimed at women as this is where the business is)?

I think it depends on the individual. There hasn't been that much participation my men for them to try to develop a "men's style" per say. I think they perhaps focus on expressing themselves as men on stage in their personal dance, but in general, they are more concerned with the progression of the dance. I personally don't "AIM" my classes at anyone. They are open to whoever wants to come. Just so happens that they are mostly women.

My experience of some male teachers who visited the UK, is they were not about 'mens dancing' but about teaching women to dance as a business making money.

Oh I feel another 10 lashes coming..

Good question. Well, we have to serve our clientele. There are very few men in the field now. If you are making your living from dance, then yes, you have to be business minded just like any other dancer. So I don't think its a case of "teaching women for money" as it is they make their money teaching dance. The overwhelming majority of the clientele happens to be women, the same as it is in every other dance field except perhaps Hip-Hop.

I have to say though... I dont think that is the case these days but I think it does still exsist and money and fame is the motivation for some... still.

Not everyone gets into dance because they are artistically motivated. Some are more ego cases than others, like anything else in life. In my case, had I had a bigger ego, I'd probably have a much stronger career at this point.

... yes and I know this is the case for women too but they are women teaching women.[/quote]

Doesn't make a difference. How is this different just because the person is a woman? For that matter, how is it different from men who teach women Ballet, Jazz, or Modern?

Tarik Sultan

Feathered headdress would work for a very theatrical Oriental costume, but only for the entrance.

Probably a bandana or some sort of cap. dreds, nooooo. For one thing, my hair doesn't lock. The more I twist it, the straighter it gets and my face is too narrow for a look like that. I don't even look good in braids. It would have to be something that is culturally appropriate to Egyptian fashion today.

Caroline_afifi

[quote=Tarik Sultan;79542]Fair enough. So the movement vocabulary is the same as a womans?
I thought you mentioned once that there are movements you do not do?
like stcik out your bottom and waggle it... perhaps I got my wires crossed, it was some time ago.