How much is too much? - Page 6

Tarik Sultan · 07-15-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Tarik,

Well done, you came up trumps with the video representations of the different styles costuming for males can take, and you hinted on something else I had not considered. That thing was how a persons body shape might suit the costume style.

To be honest, as a male,I have never considered how a style of clothing might suit me, based upon my frame, I usually just wear what takes my fancy, (I wondered about the odd looks). Anyways, I see now thanks to your post that frame has to be considered in both performance wear and civvies if one is to look one's best.

Its only within the past 20yrs that men have become conscious of our bodies, (gyms) and only in the pat 5 or so yrs of wearing clothes that compliment our shapes. We are both old enough to remember when none of that mattered and the body was incidental because the clothes, not what was in them, was what was important!

Tarik Sultan · 07-15-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirika Repun

Hey Tarik!
I like man has small ass and chicken legs, I think nice and sexy

I saw Tito wearing just T-shirts and fitted jeans to dance before, and some reason he reminds me "Freddy Mercury” of “Queen” (UK’s legendary Rock band) Maybe Tito has big ass, and his leg is kind of big (yeah, compare to chicken legs…no offence to you Tarik) when he wears fit to his body shape jeans and t-shirts, he looks little bit feminine then usual. I guess if he wears little loose or buggy jeans maybe looks different. I think fitted jeans and t-shirts emphasize his body shape, and it doesn’t look good to me. Yes, I can see his move clearly with this outfit, but I like he wear costume.

BTW the boy with white shirts and pants is cute!

I can see why he looks like Freddy to you. They both have a similar body shape and they both have that slightly balding thing in the crown of the head and the mustache.

As far as looking feminine, this is the style now. Its just that we've only begun to see it in New York within the past 2 yrs or so. But this is the trend in Europe and Egypt being closer than we are, they're actually are ahead of us in fashion.

Cairo is perhaps the only city I don't have a problem finding clothes that fit because the guys are as big as bread sticks and they wear their clothes very tight. However, what he was wearing was something that I had in mind for a costume. Rhinestone studded jeans and belt, hip scarf, fitted rhinestone tee shirt. Not sure what to do with the head yet.

But I want to be more toned something like this guy's shape. Athletic, but no bulky muscles:

Caroline_afifi · 07-15-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

If I can't I promise not to make it up.

As for the general comment. Well, understand that most dancers male or female have not learned the dance in its cultural context. They have only learned a set of movements, but not the soul which fuels those movements.
This is why there's so much non Middle Eastern stuff out there. Probably going back to the 60's, the dance was commercialized in ways that didn't relate to the culture, so people thought it was okay to use non tradition music, add in different moves etc.

Yes, you are right.

Quote:

There was a time when I myself was all technique and no personality because I thought the dance was all about moves. To be perfectly honest, this still happens at times if I'm stressed out or tired as was the case with the shish dance clip. But it's only been since I started going to Egypt more regularly and hanging with locals as versus night clubs, that I was able to see and understand the emotional quality that gives the dance its soul. Imagine the average person who hasn't. I feel that its just now that the greater dance world is beginning to understand what Egyptian dance really is, but now, thee are so many styles and of course this calling themselves real that are really not, (both by native and non natives), that people coming into the dance now are really confused.

Yes, and I understand this in the context of womens dance and often see the international scene as being different to the one in the ME.

Quote:

With the guys in the clips. The ones in Argentina all have previous dance backgrounds and that shows. They all seem to have been mentored by Amir, who although is of Arab descent, learned the dance in Argentina like the rest of us would. He is of Lebanese extraction also, which may explain why his dancing doesn't have that Egyptian feeling to it. In any case though, it is well done and tasteful. Also you have to consider that non one created a professional style of the dance for men the way they did for women. Women's dance evolved in the nightclubs of CAiro, so there was a template created that was more or less copied through out the Middle East. There was an idea of what it should look like, intent etc. We didn't have that, so each male dancer has had to decide for himself what he want's to represent on stage. That is why there is such a wide range of approaches for us. We have no archetype to follow. Tito on the other hand grew up in the culture seeing men dance socially and understanding what it is. He also saw the professional female dancers and understood what he was seeing from the cultural perspective. Therefore, he combined the social dance men do, with the theatricality of the professional dancers and that's why it makes an aesthetic sense in an Egyptian context to your eyes.

I think the confusion for me was viewing the men in the clip in the same way in which I view any aspects of the dance then the comments about dress, music etc. I assumed that male dancers experiments in much the same way as women, and it is either good or not. The fact that there is no archetype to follow would mean there would be no set dance performed to Leylet Hob.
You would not see men boogy on the dance floor in Egypt to this piece of music so it would be an interpretation. What would be a more traditional or correct way for men to dance to Leylet Hob or Aziza or Tamra Henna?

Quote:

Question? How do you find Khaled and Shafiq's dancing with regards to your comment above?

Shafeek was Reda trained and the very first time I saw him was doing Raqs al assaya and tanoura. My guess is, now he is making his living out of teaching and performing, he has spread his Isis wings to incorporate more styles to meet the demand. He believes that belly dance is a womens dance and has been copied by men.

Khaled I dont know as well as Shafeek and dont know his dance background.
I find his style very different to Shafeek. There are elements I have seen in the Egyptian cluture but again it has become stylised to meet the needs of the international belly dance scene. Khaled tends to stick with Khaleegy, Beledi and Oriental with Tabla solos.
I have also seen Ozgen but his style was completely different again and I know didly squat about Turkish.

I wonder what the expectations are of male dancers. If they stray off the right costumes with the right dance with the right music does this come into question? I didnt think it did til I saw the comments about the 3 male dancers. Of course I knew the music was not a cultural match to the costume and the moves were not strictly Debke but there are many many male performers who use artistic license outside of the cultural norms for mens dance. Do you know what I mean?

Zorba · 07-15-2008, 07:00 PM

Speaking for myself - and as always, ONLY for myself; I'm a practitioner of that well known mish-mash of styles called "American Cabaret" and make no apologies for it.

It seems to me that a lot of men restrict (hide?) themselves to folkloric styles of one kind or another - which is fine, there are women who do the same thing. This seems particularly prevelant among male dancers from the middle east (due to repressive cultural concerns - who can blame them?).

Expectations? To Hell with expectations - do what brings you joy (male or female), label/advertise it accurately (Hi A'isha!), and let the audience be the final arbiter. I'm very much into bringing one's true self to the stage (being as its taken me YEARS to begin to learn how). There's plenty of room for all presentations/interpretations.

Tarik Sultan · 07-15-2008, 07:36 PM

I think the confusion for me was viewing the men in the clip in the same way in which I view any aspects of the dance then the comments about dress, music etc. I assumed that male dancers experiments in much the same way as women, and it is either good or not. The fact that there is no archetype to follow would mean there would be no set dance performed to Leylet Hob.

They have to do Oriental because that is the only movement vocabulary that really fits the rhythmic and emotional qualities of the music.

You would not see men boogy on the dance floor in Egypt to this piece of music so it would be an interpretation. What would be a more traditional or correct way for men to dance to Leylet Hob or Aziza or Tamra Henna?

And the same goes for women as well. You will see people get up and dance to the more rhythmic sections, but not the whole thing. These types of songs were composed with professional dancing in mind. Yes you can dance socially to certain sections, but you could never do it justice.

Shafeek was Reda trained and the very first time I saw him was doing Raqs al assaya and tanoura. My guess is, now he is making his living out of teaching and performing, he has spread his Isis wings to incorporate more styles to meet the demand. He believes that belly dance is a womens dance and has been copied by men.

I meant his Oriental dancing. I know he also performs Sharki in addition to the theatre dance stuff. I understand where he is coming from with his comment about Sharki. It did develop in the context of female performers, so one could say that men are copying them to a certain extent, some certainly are in every way. The way I look at it is that we are following in their footsteps. Sharki grew out of Baladi and so now men are trying to adapt the movement vocabulary and feeling of Baladi, which gives Sharki its identity, in a context that is both dynamic and theatrical. Reda did this in a way. He took folkloric themes and adapted them to the stage in a way that was dynamic and theatrical, but what he left out of the equation for men, was the natural movement vocabulary, (because the reactionary government and right wing neo colonialist elite class would never have accepted him if he didn't). So on the one hand, he created something for guys that was theatrical, but it is very far removed from the heart and soul of the way men in Egypt express themselves through movement in real life. Tito is the first Egyptian to blend the two elements and present it on stage, but he and all of us do owe a debt to our sisters in showing how it should be done. The biggest challenge for guys is how to follow in our sister's footsteps without having to wear their shoes, know what I mean?

Khaled I dont know as well as Shafeek and dont know his dance background.
I find his style very different to Shafeek. There are elements I have seen in the Egyptian cluture but again it has become stylised to meet the needs of the international belly dance scene. Khaled tends to stick with Khaleegy, Beledi and Oriental with Tabla solos.
I have also seen Ozgen but his style was completely different again and I know didly squat about Turkish.

Could you explain more what you mean by stylized to meet the needs of the scene? Do you mean he's becoming more fusion?

I wonder what the expectations are of male dancers. If they stray off the right costumes with the right dance with the right music does this come into question?

I really can't tell you. I had a very heated debate with one male dancer who blends all kinds of things together, Indian, Arabic, Indonesian, Chinese and still thinks its Oriental dance because all these cultures are in the Orient. I don't think there is any consensus. If they go off the mark in one way or another, like women, I think it all gets thrown in the FUSION pile. Of course it also depends on if it was a good dance or not. In which case, it's either good fusion or total crap, or a good piece of total crap! I think the general public looks more for entertainment value more than anything else.

I didnt think it did til I saw the comments about the 3 male dancers. Of course I knew the music was not a cultural match to the costume and the moves were not strictly Debke but there are many many male performers who use artistic license outside of the cultural norms for mens dance. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. With the costumes, they were culturally appropriate, but for Oriental dance they'd have to have been altered slightly. The shirts would have had to be a bit more fitted, the vests or jackets a tiny bit shorter, and the pants worn lower on the hips or had a scarf tied at hip level. As far as artistic license goes, this is what I think when I see guys dancing Shamadan or wearing assuit. I think with men's dancing, there is a line that needs to be considered. People, especially Middle Easterners, are not use to seeing Sharki done by a male and are loath to see men behaving or presenting themselves in a manner perceived as feminine in public, unless its comedy. Therefore, as I've said before, if we are to walk down that road, we have to be aware of this fact. We must do it in a way that doesn't cause us to lose our maleness. Like I said, follow our sister's footsteps, not walk in their shoes. Perhaps this is what these guys are struggling with, who knows. However, no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of people who will not accept a man dancing in public whether it be Baladi or Sharki, just as there are people who do not accept women dancing in public whether she is covered or wearing bedlah. You will never find 100% love, understands or support of anything from the total population. You may change some mind, maybe even many minds, but you will never change every mind and that's just life.

Tarik Sultan · 07-15-2008, 07:39 PM

[quote=Zorba;79415
Expectations? To Hell with expectations - do what brings you joy (male or female), label/advertise it accurately (Hi A'isha!), and let the audience be the final arbiter. I'm very much into bringing one's true self to the stage (being as its taken me YEARS to begin to learn how). There's plenty of room for all presentations/interpretations.[/QUOTE]

Except for those damn Zen Buddhist belly dance fusionists from Zanzibar! They must be exterminated immediately before they infect us with their inner peace, enlightenment and exotic spices!

Zorba · 07-15-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Except for those damn Zen Buddhist belly dance fusionists from Zanzibar! They must be exterminated immediately before they infect us with their inner peace, enlightenment and exotic spices!

B B But Tarik dear, I though YOU were one!

Zorba · 07-15-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

However, no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of people who will not accept a man dancing in public whether it be Baladi or Sharki, just as there are people who do not accept women dancing in public whether she is covered or wearing bedlah. You will never find 100% love, understands or support of anything from the total population. You may change some mind, maybe even many minds, but you will never change every mind and that's just life.

Never a truer word was spoken.

Caroline_afifi · 07-15-2008, 08:12 PM

They have to do Oriental because that is the only movement vocabulary that really fits the rhythmic and emotional qualities of the music.

Ok, but what is considered ok costuming if theirs was not appropriate?

Quote:

I meant his Oriental dancing. I know he also performs Sharki in addition to the theatre dance stuff. I understand where he is coming from with his comment about Sharki. It did develop in the context of female performers, so one could say that men are copying them to a certain extent, some certainly are in every way. The way I look at it is that we are following in their footsteps. Sharki grew out of Baladi and so now men are trying to adapt the movement vocabulary and feeling of Baladi, which gives Sharki its identity, in a context that is both dynamic and theatrical. Reda did this in a way. He took folkloric themes and adapted them to the stage in a way that was dynamic and theatrical, but what he left out of the equation for men, was the natural movement vocabulary, (because the reactionary government and right wing neo colonialist elite class would never have accepted him if he didn't). So on the one hand, he created something for guys that was theatrical, but it is very far removed from the heart and soul of the way men in Egypt express themselves through movement in real life. Tito is the first Egyptian to blend the two elements and present it on stage, but he and all of us do owe a debt to our sisters in showing how it should be done. The biggest challenge for guys is how to follow in our sister's footsteps without having to wear their shoes, know what I mean?

Khaled I dont know as well as Shafeek and dont know his dance background.
I find his style very different to Shafeek. There are elements I have seen in the Egyptian cluture but again it has become stylised to meet the needs of the international belly dance scene. Khaled tends to stick with Khaleegy, Beledi and Oriental with Tabla solos.
I have also seen Ozgen but his style was completely different again and I know didly squat about Turkish.

Could you explain more what you mean by stylized to meet the needs of the scene? Do you mean he's becoming more fusion?

Stylised meaning a performing art in the vocabulary of stage dance/cabaret
not usually performed by folkloric dancers and in a style which is quite new on the scene in Cairo like mens belly dance. Men have always danced casually but not as a performance art in this particular style.

I wonder what the expectations are of male dancers. If they stray off the right costumes with the right dance with the right music does this come into question?

I really can't tell you. I had a very heated debate with one male dancer who blends all kinds of things together, Indian, Arabic, Indonesian, Chinese and still thinks its Oriental dance because all these cultures are in the Orient. I don't think there is any consensus. If they go off the mark in one way or another, like women, I think it all gets thrown in the FUSION pile. Of course it also depends on if it was a good dance or not. In which case, it's either good fusion or total crap, or a good piece of total crap! I think the general public looks more for entertainment value more than anything else.

Yes, true but alot of comments about the 3 dancers were in reference to what they were wearing.

Quote:

I didnt think it did til I saw the comments about the 3 male dancers. Of course I knew the music was not a cultural match to the costume and the moves were not strictly Debke but there are many many male performers who use artistic license outside of the cultural norms for mens dance. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. With the costumes, they were culturally appropriate, but for Oriental dance they'd have to have been altered slightly. The shirts would have had to be a bit more fitted, the vests or jackets a tiny bit shorter, and the pants worn lower on the hips or had a scarf tied at hip level. As far as artistic license goes, this is what I think when I see guys dancing Shamadan or wearing assuit. I think with men's dancing, there is a line that needs to be considered. People, especially Middle Easterners, are not use to seeing Sharki done by a male and are loath to see men behaving or presenting themselves in a manner perceived as feminine in public, unless its comedy. Therefore, as I've said before, if we are to walk down that road, we have to be aware of this fact. We must do it in a way that doesn't cause us to lose our maleness. Like I said, follow our sister's footsteps, not walk in their shoes. Perhaps this is what these guys are struggling with, who knows. However, no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of people who will not accept a man dancing in public whether it be Baladi or Sharki, just as there are people who do not accept women dancing in public whether she is covered or wearing bedlah. You will never find 100% love, understands or support of anything from the total population. You may change some mind, maybe even many minds, but you will never change every mind and that's just life.

[/quote]

I think the issues of costuming will be as complex as the same issue for women. I feel that different people want different things from a costume. Some Want to make a statement about the dance and others want to say it about themselves. Some manage to blend both very well.
As there has been no real tradition in costuming (outside of traditional dancing for men) I think it it perhaps even more difficult for men to find something which reflects both. Raqs sharqi is a stylised performance originally performed by women in costumes from a certain era. Men do not have these same examples to follow. The same with classical dance, it has to be stylised in some way for men and adapted or it will look like a female dance... wont it?
This is what i mean by stylised for the International belly dance scene. It is not something which has cultural roots and is perhaps a modern development.
Shafeek did not perform in this style til he moved to the UK, his early performances were all Folkloric from what i saw and he has adapted and changed to meet the needs of the International scene who often expect much more. I think he is also enjoying the freedom to experiment with a variety of styles and fusion too.

Tarik Sultan · 07-15-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

B B But Tarik dear, I though YOU were one!

AAAAAGGGGHHH!!!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

07-15-2008, 07:00 PM	#54 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	Speaking for myself - and as always, ONLY for myself; I'm a practitioner of that well known mish-mash of styles called "American Cabaret" and make no apologies for it. It seems to me that a lot of men restrict (hide?) themselves to folkloric styles of one kind or another - which is fine, there are women who do the same thing. This seems particularly prevelant among male dancers from the middle east (due to repressive cultural concerns - who can blame them?). Expectations? To Hell with expectations - do what brings you joy (male or female), label/advertise it accurately (Hi A'isha!), and let the audience be the final arbiter. I'm very much into bringing one's true self to the stage (being as its taken me YEARS to begin to learn how). There's plenty of room for all presentations/interpretations. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

07-15-2008, 07:36 PM	#55 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	I think the confusion for me was viewing the men in the clip in the same way in which I view any aspects of the dance then the comments about dress, music etc. I assumed that male dancers experiments in much the same way as women, and it is either good or not. The fact that there is no archetype to follow would mean there would be no set dance performed to Leylet Hob. They have to do Oriental because that is the only movement vocabulary that really fits the rhythmic and emotional qualities of the music. You would not see men boogy on the dance floor in Egypt to this piece of music so it would be an interpretation. What would be a more traditional or correct way for men to dance to Leylet Hob or Aziza or Tamra Henna? And the same goes for women as well. You will see people get up and dance to the more rhythmic sections, but not the whole thing. These types of songs were composed with professional dancing in mind. Yes you can dance socially to certain sections, but you could never do it justice. Shafeek was Reda trained and the very first time I saw him was doing Raqs al assaya and tanoura. My guess is, now he is making his living out of teaching and performing, he has spread his Isis wings to incorporate more styles to meet the demand. He believes that belly dance is a womens dance and has been copied by men. I meant his Oriental dancing. I know he also performs Sharki in addition to the theatre dance stuff. I understand where he is coming from with his comment about Sharki. It did develop in the context of female performers, so one could say that men are copying them to a certain extent, some certainly are in every way. The way I look at it is that we are following in their footsteps. Sharki grew out of Baladi and so now men are trying to adapt the movement vocabulary and feeling of Baladi, which gives Sharki its identity, in a context that is both dynamic and theatrical. Reda did this in a way. He took folkloric themes and adapted them to the stage in a way that was dynamic and theatrical, but what he left out of the equation for men, was the natural movement vocabulary, (because the reactionary government and right wing neo colonialist elite class would never have accepted him if he didn't). So on the one hand, he created something for guys that was theatrical, but it is very far removed from the heart and soul of the way men in Egypt express themselves through movement in real life. Tito is the first Egyptian to blend the two elements and present it on stage, but he and all of us do owe a debt to our sisters in showing how it should be done. The biggest challenge for guys is how to follow in our sister's footsteps without having to wear their shoes, know what I mean? Khaled I dont know as well as Shafeek and dont know his dance background. I find his style very different to Shafeek. There are elements I have seen in the Egyptian cluture but again it has become stylised to meet the needs of the international belly dance scene. Khaled tends to stick with Khaleegy, Beledi and Oriental with Tabla solos. I have also seen Ozgen but his style was completely different again and I know didly squat about Turkish. Could you explain more what you mean by stylized to meet the needs of the scene? Do you mean he's becoming more fusion? I wonder what the expectations are of male dancers. If they stray off the right costumes with the right dance with the right music does this come into question? I really can't tell you. I had a very heated debate with one male dancer who blends all kinds of things together, Indian, Arabic, Indonesian, Chinese and still thinks its Oriental dance because all these cultures are in the Orient. I don't think there is any consensus. If they go off the mark in one way or another, like women, I think it all gets thrown in the FUSION pile. Of course it also depends on if it was a good dance or not. In which case, it's either good fusion or total crap, or a good piece of total crap! I think the general public looks more for entertainment value more than anything else. I didnt think it did til I saw the comments about the 3 male dancers. Of course I knew the music was not a cultural match to the costume and the moves were not strictly Debke but there are many many male performers who use artistic license outside of the cultural norms for mens dance. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I know what you mean. With the costumes, they were culturally appropriate, but for Oriental dance they'd have to have been altered slightly. The shirts would have had to be a bit more fitted, the vests or jackets a tiny bit shorter, and the pants worn lower on the hips or had a scarf tied at hip level. As far as artistic license goes, this is what I think when I see guys dancing Shamadan or wearing assuit. I think with men's dancing, there is a line that needs to be considered. People, especially Middle Easterners, are not use to seeing Sharki done by a male and are loath to see men behaving or presenting themselves in a manner perceived as feminine in public, unless its comedy. Therefore, as I've said before, if we are to walk down that road, we have to be aware of this fact. We must do it in a way that doesn't cause us to lose our maleness. Like I said, follow our sister's footsteps, not walk in their shoes. Perhaps this is what these guys are struggling with, who knows. However, no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of people who will not accept a man dancing in public whether it be Baladi or Sharki, just as there are people who do not accept women dancing in public whether she is covered or wearing bedlah. You will never find 100% love, understands or support of anything from the total population. You may change some mind, maybe even many minds, but you will never change every mind and that's just life.

07-15-2008, 07:39 PM	#56 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	[quote=Zorba;79415 Expectations? To Hell with expectations - do what brings you joy (male or female), label/advertise it accurately (Hi A'isha!), and let the audience be the final arbiter. I'm very much into bringing one's true self to the stage (being as its taken me YEARS to begin to learn how). There's plenty of room for all presentations/interpretations.[/QUOTE] Except for those damn Zen Buddhist belly dance fusionists from Zanzibar! They must be exterminated immediately before they infect us with their inner peace, enlightenment and exotic spices!