Not to fan any more flames but..... - Page 7

khanjar · 06-24-2008, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Look at the way these guys carry themselves. There's something about them that we recognize as male. They are not trying to BE they are BEING. They are not acting MACHO, but even though they are defying the MACHO stereotype, they do not look effeminate. They are graceful, comfortable in their bodies manly, but not in an aggressive or threatening way. Am I making sense? This is what most guys need to see. That they can access a different energy and it won't mean that they will not look like "women", soft, sissy.... whatever. I don't try to ACT like a man when I dance. I am comfortable with who I am so what I am just expresses itself, I don't have to make it but I look like a man even though I'm not a rugged guy or a MACHO.

Interesting in that last video Tarik, the men doing hula looked completely natural, and I could not see effeminacy, nor could I see macho, just men dancing, and enjoying themselves. It was also interesting in that they portrayed confidence in their performance.

The narrator at the end said that the dance was about the elements and as it appeared to me, what these men were doing was almost ritualistic and they looked like they believed in the ritual, hence the air of confidence.

I did wonder from watching your videos of males dancing, could a lot of the dissent from males who watch dance of any kind involving male dancers be because they wish not to see a male dancing because they are uncomfortable and would rather view the opposite sex as they see the dancer's form and not the dance.

The first two videos of social situations, I admire those people and their culture, just people doing their thing, enjoying themselves and no one bats an eye lid.

Why can't we be like that ?

An interesting but old link perhaps, a collection of threads from various sources I think which does throw some light on how things should be ?

Male Dancers

Caroline_afifi · 06-24-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

I read something recently about a woman in S London who works with problem kids and puts the knife culture and all the aggression is down to lousy parenting - they are brought up so badly with no one taking proper care of them or setting boundaries etc. that they are like cornered animals ready to attack at the slightest perceived threat, eg someone looking at them "funny". And once there's an element behaving like this it spreads to the less disturbed ones who then think they need knives for protection.

And before they get old enough to get a bit of sense and maturity they are off breeding more feral kids.

Of course parents must take responsibilty but I jave met parents who were very good and loving and in total despair. Sometimes outside influences are just too strong. Perhaps it is a single parent family and a parent has died, left or whatever. Young people are also very angry and for lots of different reasons.

Caroline_afifi · 06-24-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

The first two videos of social situations, I admire those people and their culture, just people doing their thing, enjoying themselves and no one bats an eye lid.

Why can't we be like that ?

Male Dancers

The thing is Khanjar, we would love to collect all the good things from various cultures around the world and make our own individual culture, and to some extent we do.
The grass is always greener on the otherside etc. but this maybe the only part of that particular culture you may want.
I often hear people go into dreamy land about the Middle East because they are hooked on Belly dancing, the other thing people do it criticise everything about it ecept the dance.
I am not suggesting you are doing that, I am just making a point.

When I was growing up, everyone danced around me, men and women at various parties doing the 'twist and the bumps' etc. we have always had male dancing but minus the dressing up.

Brea · 06-24-2008, 03:00 PM

Formal feral kid here (and current half-feral woman), letting you know that juvenile offenders do NOT always just get away with a ticket! God, I wish.

From where I stand, it seems like the gender divide is just getting worse; more solid, more stringent, and it's just sad to think after all thsoe steps forward we're falling backwards off a cliff. It seems that the children being brought up right now are the ones being put into this extreme gender divide, at least over here in the States.

Khanjar - hula is for storytelling. It was not generally ritualistic. To the Hawaiians everything was of God so it was hard to pinpoint anything particularly done for or outside of it, but it was mostly just entertainment. The missionaries had a hard time getting them to come to church as opposed to watching the hula.

Helena Bellydancer · 06-24-2008, 05:18 PM

I'm new to this forum so apologies if I end up duplicating previous points!

I am not sure I have ever felt a bond with a woman just because she was also a woman. I certainly found it irritating at school and even at Uni that so many of my female contemporaries seemed so keen to buy into those "what a girl MUST like" ideas, especially as these didn't tally with my own ideas of fun. I struggled to relate to these girls and my friendship circle was pretty much all guys at one point.

As I have gotten older I have met a broader spectrum of women (or maybe we all just grew up a bit!) and the ratio is a little more equal now but whether I like or relate to someone seems to me to be everything to do with shared interests and motivations and nothing to do with gender - except in as much as people allow gender definitions rule/restrict their interest.

So in a lot of ways I find it hard to understand what you are saying, Tarik. I tend to find I relate to an individual rather than a gender and have often I have felt lonelier around all women than when surrounded by men. But then I don't have an interest which virtually none of my gender share, and I also haven't had to turn up on my own to an all-male dance class. I can appreciate that in those circumstances you'd start to feel grateful for occasionally having someone else the same gender around!

What would be a female equivalent hobby? Maybe gaming? Still - and I might be wrong here - I do think it is harder for men to break into pursuits that are held to be female than it is these days for women to break into pursuits traditionally perceived as male. Maybe with women having been so obviously opressed by traditional gender roles we have been less ready as a society to acknowledge that these constructs restrict men too? Or maybe simply not enough men are interested in pushing the boundaries?

In that respect the small number of male dancers really are trailblazers - hopefully thanks to your lead society will increasingly challenge traditionally male gender constructs too and the next generation of male belly dancers won't feel quite so outnumbered.

And then maybe we can just have shows, without even giving a second thought as to what gender is involved?

Zorba · 06-24-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helena Bellydancer

I do think it is harder for men to break into pursuits that are held to be female than it is these days for women to break into pursuits traditionally perceived as male. Maybe with women having been so obviously oppressed by traditional gender roles we have been less ready as a society to acknowledge that these constructs restrict men too? Or maybe simply not enough men are interested in pushing the boundaries?

Thank you for noticing - I've been "screaming" this for years and having most look at me like I have three heads. There's a lot of baggage here in that a woman doing a "man's thing" is considered to be raising herself, whereas a man doing a "woman's thing" is considered to be lowering himself. See many feminist writings for citations.

Utter nonsense, of course - but there you have it. As a result, most guys won't touch ANYTHING they perceive as being even remotely "feminine" with 55 foot long pole! So men as a group aren't really interested in pushing the boundaries - and indeed are the most ruthless enforcers of same. "We've met the enemy, and its us (men)."

Brea · 06-25-2008, 02:47 AM

I agree with both Zorba and Helena here. It seems it's time to let female chauvinism be noticed as well. I really dislike it when people say things about men they would be very angry about if it was said about women. I used to work with someone who'd always say things like 'why are men so stupid?" and the part I don't understand is why men go along with these categorizations.

lizaj · 06-25-2008, 08:05 AM

Sorry...... but on this board there are I am proud to say are a lot of reasonably and very intelligent people both male and female but look around society and you will see characters Gerry Springer and the UK Jeremy (Vile..sic or is that sick) would be proud of. All confirming the worst ideals of stereotyping!
Were we to transport ourselves back to Victorian London and stand back and look at the layers of society..mmm...how far have we moved on?
Yes women now how legal rights and work opportunites but my hairdresser still needs to display a poster-help-line for battered women,everyone loves macho-man petrol head Jeremy Clarkson ( some even want him for prime minister).Foul and nauseatingly violent films and video games especially if they contain sexual violence are ever popular amongst young men.I could go on.

Caroline_afifi · 06-25-2008, 09:15 AM

Yes Liz... totally agree.

I assume we all strive for equality but we are totally not there yet. Any 'ISM' is about the balance of power. Men still have the scales touching the floor while women swing in the air. We might have a good little balance in the way in which we live as individuals but lets please not confuse this with the wider picture.
I was 'head hunted' two days ago to take part in a team examing ways of tackling the slavery of women for the purpose of prostitution.
This is England........

A man being called stupid is the least of some peoples worries.

Helena Bellydancer · 06-25-2008, 12:39 PM

Hi Liz and Caroline

Wasn't meaning to at all imply that women have now succeeded in achieving equality or that men aren't in many ways still in a superior position in society - we have come a long way but we certainly still have plenty of distance to travel even in the supposedly "developed" world.

In comparison to many of the battles faced by society for equality this issue may seem trivial - certainly when compared, for example, to the appalling female trafficking and other instances mentioned by Caroline - but we surely need to battle all instances of discrimination, big or small?

06-24-2008, 03:00 PM	#64 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Formal feral kid here (and current half-feral woman), letting you know that juvenile offenders do NOT always just get away with a ticket! God, I wish. From where I stand, it seems like the gender divide is just getting worse; more solid, more stringent, and it's just sad to think after all thsoe steps forward we're falling backwards off a cliff. It seems that the children being brought up right now are the ones being put into this extreme gender divide, at least over here in the States. Khanjar - hula is for storytelling. It was not generally ritualistic. To the Hawaiians everything was of God so it was hard to pinpoint anything particularly done for or outside of it, but it was mostly just entertainment. The missionaries had a hard time getting them to come to church as opposed to watching the hula. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com Last edited by Brea; 06-24-2008 at 03:04 PM.

06-25-2008, 02:47 AM	#67 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I agree with both Zorba and Helena here. It seems it's time to let female chauvinism be noticed as well. I really dislike it when people say things about men they would be very angry about if it was said about women. I used to work with someone who'd always say things like 'why are men so stupid?" and the part I don't understand is why men go along with these categorizations. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

06-24-2008, 05:18 PM	#65 (permalink)
Helena Bellydancer Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Leeds Posts: 27	I'm new to this forum so apologies if I end up duplicating previous points! I am not sure I have ever felt a bond with a woman just because she was also a woman. I certainly found it irritating at school and even at Uni that so many of my female contemporaries seemed so keen to buy into those "what a girl MUST like" ideas, especially as these didn't tally with my own ideas of fun. I struggled to relate to these girls and my friendship circle was pretty much all guys at one point. As I have gotten older I have met a broader spectrum of women (or maybe we all just grew up a bit!) and the ratio is a little more equal now but whether I like or relate to someone seems to me to be everything to do with shared interests and motivations and nothing to do with gender - except in as much as people allow gender definitions rule/restrict their interest. So in a lot of ways I find it hard to understand what you are saying, Tarik. I tend to find I relate to an individual rather than a gender and have often I have felt lonelier around all women than when surrounded by men. But then I don't have an interest which virtually none of my gender share, and I also haven't had to turn up on my own to an all-male dance class. I can appreciate that in those circumstances you'd start to feel grateful for occasionally having someone else the same gender around! What would be a female equivalent hobby? Maybe gaming? Still - and I might be wrong here - I do think it is harder for men to break into pursuits that are held to be female than it is these days for women to break into pursuits traditionally perceived as male. Maybe with women having been so obviously opressed by traditional gender roles we have been less ready as a society to acknowledge that these constructs restrict men too? Or maybe simply not enough men are interested in pushing the boundaries? In that respect the small number of male dancers really are trailblazers - hopefully thanks to your lead society will increasingly challenge traditionally male gender constructs too and the next generation of male belly dancers won't feel quite so outnumbered. And then maybe we can just have shows, without even giving a second thought as to what gender is involved?

06-25-2008, 08:05 AM	#68 (permalink)
lizaj Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,288	Sorry...... but on this board there are I am proud to say are a lot of reasonably and very intelligent people both male and female but look around society and you will see characters Gerry Springer and the UK Jeremy (Vile..sic or is that sick) would be proud of. All confirming the worst ideals of stereotyping! Were we to transport ourselves back to Victorian London and stand back and look at the layers of society..mmm...how far have we moved on? Yes women now how legal rights and work opportunites but my hairdresser still needs to display a poster-help-line for battered women,everyone loves macho-man petrol head Jeremy Clarkson ( some even want him for prime minister).Foul and nauseatingly violent films and video games especially if they contain sexual violence are ever popular amongst young men.I could go on.

06-25-2008, 09:15 AM	#69 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,376	Yes Liz... totally agree. I assume we all strive for equality but we are totally not there yet. Any 'ISM' is about the balance of power. Men still have the scales touching the floor while women swing in the air. We might have a good little balance in the way in which we live as individuals but lets please not confuse this with the wider picture. I was 'head hunted' two days ago to take part in a team examing ways of tackling the slavery of women for the purpose of prostitution. This is England........ A man being called stupid is the least of some peoples worries.

06-25-2008, 12:39 PM	#70 (permalink)
Helena Bellydancer Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Leeds Posts: 27	Hi Liz and Caroline Wasn't meaning to at all imply that women have now succeeded in achieving equality or that men aren't in many ways still in a superior position in society - we have come a long way but we certainly still have plenty of distance to travel even in the supposedly "developed" world. In comparison to many of the battles faced by society for equality this issue may seem trivial - certainly when compared, for example, to the appalling female trafficking and other instances mentioned by Caroline - but we surely need to battle all instances of discrimination, big or small?