Not to fan any more flames but..... - Page 5

Tarik Sultan · 06-22-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

I'm not keen on 'if you're a woman you MUST like' statements... and to the same extent I would think that there are many men who feel just as grumpy about 'if you're a man you MUST like' statements....
Having said this - there is often a basis for the gender stereotypes that we refer to - it's just that they are only a stereotype, not applicable to each and every man, woman, child or geek.
Perhaps it's possible for some of us at least to treat each other as if we are human beings rather than carbon copies of some gender stereotype that we have been trained to identify with?
I hope so - and in my work in pain management at least, I hope I can have the ability to recognise that men have a softer side, women have a harder side - and all of us can appreciate good friendship!

You are so right. I spoke about this in my class yesterday. Women on stage have to be able to access their strength, emotional and psychological and express that through their bodies. They have to take up physical space, not just with their bodies, how much arm space they use, but put the energy behind it and make the emotional/psychological statement that they have a rightful place in the world and this is it! Women have been brainwashed to be seen but not heard in the world that often gets expressed in posture that is non-threatening, unassertive, passive. Women have upper body strength and muscles. Even if we look at "traditional" women's roles, It takes physical strength to carry a baby AND work in the fields. It takes upper body strength to fetch water, fire wood, wash clothes. Are you kidding me? try doing any of that stuff with butter muscles! Elite women were the ones who were supposed to sit and manage servants not get dirt under their nails and so we've all been brainwashed to strive for that ideal.... and die from osteoporosis from the lack of exercise. Life is so much better for everyone when we can realize so much of what we are expected to do and be is a load of crap and we are better off giving the toilet a good flush!

Brea · 06-22-2008, 04:43 PM

Yes, Tarik, this is all true.

I study (aside from Scotland and gorillas) French history. It's amazing how people described very manly fellows like Louis XIV - fantastic at the ballet, had beautiful feet and the nicest legs at court. Long, flowing hair was also 'in' for European men during that time period, and male beauty was praised. So although we're taught that men and women have been 'like this since the beginning of time' that's a major lie that can be easily exposed by looking at some pretty simple history. I just don't understand how this all is so powerful and prevalent, or why people fall for it constantly.

I'm with both Tarik and adiemus - I hate those 'you must like' things, and especially the commercial assumption about it. I don't like ads aimed at me showing home, hearth and children, any more than my dad (a lifelong house husband and interior decorator) likes the insinuation that only women cook, clean, or go grocery shopping. In fact, now that I think of it, I have been dragged around more by my father and boyfriend on shopping trips than any woman I've ever known.

I suppose that was one thing I was curious about, Tarik; the expression of that faux 'maleness' onstage that you believe should be used. I see that you are saying it is for the purpose of showing those men who are afraid that there is nothing to be afraid of (they can still be men and dance). I once had a history prof who said 'you can't drag them kicking and screaming into the light. You have to hold their hands'. His reasoning was that people would just reject anything you suddenly presented but if they were eased into it slowly it would come more naturally to them. Perhaps this is the point you are coming from?

cathy · 06-22-2008, 04:57 PM

Hi Tarik

I agree with what you are saying about yin/yang energy and also women taking space, projecting energy, confidence, and strength! (You have been helping me a lot with these ideas, and it can take awhile!) Maybe this dance is a chance to round out character and expression in general, for either gender.

Last time I checked, no one needs a permit in this country to do this dance, or to hold an event and invite any particular group of dancers to perform, for instance, an all male event. No one can stop you! But I can see why it would be really irksome that anyone would try to, or would predict doom and gloom to the future of the dance because of it.

I'm all in favor of acknowledging and developing the humanity in each of us and all of us rather than setting arbitrary limits and definitions in terms of who can be, think, or do what. (As long as it's not hurting anyone of course.)

It seems to me like the parallel insults generated by the patriarchal structure are: women who don't toe the line are called sluts and whores, or at the very least ugly, loud and mannish (Hilary Clinton) and men who don't toe the line are called gay or effeminate. This goes for this dance but also WELL beyond it. Both are designed to shut up the supposed offender, control them through shame and doubt. It's ironic but a lot of times these concepts are enforced more zealously within the gender group than from the outside.

Cathy

Tarik Sultan · 06-22-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

I suppose that was one thing I was curious about, Tarik; the expression of that faux 'maleness' onstage that you believe should be used. I see that you are saying it is for the purpose of showing those men who are afraid that there is nothing to be afraid of (they can still be men and dance). I once had a history prof who said 'you can't drag them kicking and screaming into the light. You have to hold their hands'. His reasoning was that people would just reject anything you suddenly presented but if they were eased into it slowly it would come more naturally to them. Perhaps this is the point you are coming from?

This does confuse people at times. I think there is a major difference between being male and macho. Male is nature, mocho is the faux construct of what maleness should be. What most men are afraid of is being perceived as being weak. This is why they are uncomfortable with effeminate men. When I say manly, I'm talking about body language, the way we carry ourselves as opposed to the way women do. Even when a woman is what we would call butch, there is still a difference in the way she carries herself as opposed to a man. I think it has to do with simple mechanics of how male and female bodies are designed.

What I'm saying is that most guys expect that to step out of the stereotype means to be skipping around and drinking tea with the pinky raised. Know what I mean. What I'm saying is that they need to see men, who still carry themselves like men, not because they are TRYING to LOOK like men, but because they just are who and what they are. The way we see men being just walking down the street for instance, so hard to describe in writing. Anyway, men just being ordinary men, not MACHOs not but still men, being graceful. Okay I guess i have to show it.

Look at the way these guys carry themselves. There's something about them that we recognize as male. They are not trying to BE they are BEING. They are not acting MACHO, but even though they are defying the MACHO stereotype, they do not look effeminate. They are graceful, comfortable in their bodies manly, but not in an aggressive or threatening way. Am I making sense? This is what most guys need to see. That they can access a different energy and it won't mean that they will not look like "women", soft, sissy.... whatever. I don't try to ACT like a man when I dance. I am comfortable with who I am so what I am just expresses itself, I don't have to make it but I look like a man even though I'm not a rugged guy or a MACHO.

Brea · 06-22-2008, 06:02 PM

Tarik, I understand what you mean. I think the difference is, within those cultures, it's perfectly fine for men to do those things and that's why there's a disconnect. Western concepts of 'manly' are not the same as Middle Eastern, or Hawaiian. In Hawai'i, nobody raises an eyebrow at a man who says he dances hula (unless it's a tourist). Therefore you often don't see them trying to overcompensate by acting macho (unless it's a war hula, where showing off is sort of the point). I always found this rather odd, as often gender division in Hawai'i is even more prevalent than it is on the mainland.

I think, or hope, that the idea is to encourage Western thought to come around more to that way of seeing dance.

I've been playing around with ideas for posters advertising my classes, letting men know that I teach them. I have been wondering how I can put it/what photo I can put on it to make it seem OK for them to do. Any ideas, anybody?

Caroline_afifi · 06-22-2008, 06:18 PM

The Middle East does have gender stereotypes although holding hands, dancing and greeting with kisses are perfectly ok.
There are definate roles for both men and women and rules of society in relation to both genders.

What men generally are able to do with MED is take the aspect of MED culture which is acceptable and bring it into their dance.
I cant explain this well.

There are things in MED which men can adopt whilst rejecting other aspects. Having the freedom to dance in this way without being judged for is one of them.
Women do the same, we often take the things we like from the Middle East and express it because it allows us to do things which our own cultures may frown upon.

Brea · 06-22-2008, 06:35 PM

Hi Caroline,

Oh yes, I am aware of the ME gender stereotypes, as well as the Hawaiian. However, dance does not seem to fall within that category as much as it does in the West.

Sara · 06-22-2008, 06:48 PM

I'm not too sure about the stereotypes that girls and boys MUST like this and that. Perhaps it applies where you live, but here it is not so.

Yes there are general sterotypes, but it is not that we must or mustn't do or like something, just that generally different genders do. For example a typical night at the pub.

I LOVE ale, cider, owt in a pint glass. Give me a pint of larger and I'm a happy bunny. Generally this is seen as a guys drink because it's mostly guys that like it. It's not because they must, just there prefere it. Most of my girl friends will get spirits with soft drinks or wine. I abhor wine, but enjoy spirits. They don't get it because they've been programmed to think that it's girly, they just enjoy it. I think this is what makes for the difference between the sexes as seen and understood as general.

People do things they enjoy. Stereotypes like this exist because generally it's what a large majority of the sex enjoys doing. All my girl friends, whatever their background, enjoy going clothes shopping. They like to dress themselves up in whatever fashion. But I know guys that like it too. It's just more of my guy friends would rather go to play rugby than go shopping. It's just how it is. No one is saying or influencing them. They are simply doing what they want to do. I know a lot of the rugby team enjoy clothes shopping. I think people rarely act by stereotypes, they just do as they please, and it so happens that these things can generally be stereotyped. That is the case of things here at any rate.

khanjar · 06-22-2008, 08:35 PM

Interesting what you say there Sara, as I do know with the younger, the traditional male and female stereotypes are not as prevalent, this I am seeing in Britain, and welcome it as a good thing, maybe there is a possibility that Britain is moving forward.

You see, we are now seeing as far as cosmetics goes, cosmetics for men, and a whole industry being raised up on making a male make the best of themselves, clothing and even 'man bags'. Now I understand this could be an untapped area for marketing to make a living in the already swamped women's personal care industries, but when I was younger, men did not wear cosmetics and moisturiser, what was that ? Oh, to moisturise the skin, why ? But, now it has all changed, and male attitudes are changing with it. Hopefully for the better

Now having said that about the personal care industries nor targeting men, it does occur that us later males are different. Different in that aside from aftershaves, cosmetics for men are something very new, as are some of the fashions and with that the attitudes, just as it is for the older generation, what we do in this present generation is different to the older and their attitudes. We of our age group have been brought up with the notion that males who dance are different.

My youth, well males who gyrated around a dance floor were seen as strange and possibly 'puffy' as we used to say. Discos and the like, the females danced and the males quaffed their ale. Occaisionaly a male drunk enough would get up to dance, well, they got up onto the dance floor, but it wasn't dance, more of a case of someone wanted to show they were brave in entering an area where angels fear to tread. I remember one person who dressed differently and kept himself to himself, when a particular song came on, he got up and impressively did his thing, a well rehearsed piece and pretty impressive at that, the likes of which we only saw on tv, only to get run out of the club for being different and possibly a 'puff'.Such were the attitudes to dance in my youth, it was not a man's thing to do. Oh, the elder generation often danced, but that was an elder thing, barn dances and ballroom dancing.

I know no one of my age group who is male and dances, so this is where I base my oppinion on how males of my age group might see a male who dances, especially MED, as this in our past was pretty unusual, and what we knew of it, it was a female dance.

It would be interesting to know of what age in reality those who might question a male who dances MED are. Is it just a product of the past, or is it the same now with the younger generation ?

It would also be interesting to see how the younger generation of males view a male who does BD, thus indicating whether we are really moving forward or not.

Brea · 06-23-2008, 01:35 AM

I do think some things are changing, which is a good thing. To be frank, where I am it's not that strange for a woman to be very tough. Not quite as much as I was though. There are still gender lines, and people don't like to cross them.

I am glad to hear, Sara, that things are different where you are.

06-22-2008, 04:43 PM	#42 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Yes, Tarik, this is all true. I study (aside from Scotland and gorillas) French history. It's amazing how people described very manly fellows like Louis XIV - fantastic at the ballet, had beautiful feet and the nicest legs at court. Long, flowing hair was also 'in' for European men during that time period, and male beauty was praised. So although we're taught that men and women have been 'like this since the beginning of time' that's a major lie that can be easily exposed by looking at some pretty simple history. I just don't understand how this all is so powerful and prevalent, or why people fall for it constantly. I'm with both Tarik and adiemus - I hate those 'you must like' things, and especially the commercial assumption about it. I don't like ads aimed at me showing home, hearth and children, any more than my dad (a lifelong house husband and interior decorator) likes the insinuation that only women cook, clean, or go grocery shopping. In fact, now that I think of it, I have been dragged around more by my father and boyfriend on shopping trips than any woman I've ever known. I suppose that was one thing I was curious about, Tarik; the expression of that faux 'maleness' onstage that you believe should be used. I see that you are saying it is for the purpose of showing those men who are afraid that there is nothing to be afraid of (they can still be men and dance). I once had a history prof who said 'you can't drag them kicking and screaming into the light. You have to hold their hands'. His reasoning was that people would just reject anything you suddenly presented but if they were eased into it slowly it would come more naturally to them. Perhaps this is the point you are coming from? __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

06-22-2008, 04:57 PM	#43 (permalink)
cathy Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 430	Hi Tarik I agree with what you are saying about yin/yang energy and also women taking space, projecting energy, confidence, and strength! (You have been helping me a lot with these ideas, and it can take awhile!) Maybe this dance is a chance to round out character and expression in general, for either gender. Last time I checked, no one needs a permit in this country to do this dance, or to hold an event and invite any particular group of dancers to perform, for instance, an all male event. No one can stop you! But I can see why it would be really irksome that anyone would try to, or would predict doom and gloom to the future of the dance because of it. I'm all in favor of acknowledging and developing the humanity in each of us and all of us rather than setting arbitrary limits and definitions in terms of who can be, think, or do what. (As long as it's not hurting anyone of course.) It seems to me like the parallel insults generated by the patriarchal structure are: women who don't toe the line are called sluts and whores, or at the very least ugly, loud and mannish (Hilary Clinton) and men who don't toe the line are called gay or effeminate. This goes for this dance but also WELL beyond it. Both are designed to shut up the supposed offender, control them through shame and doubt. It's ironic but a lot of times these concepts are enforced more zealously within the gender group than from the outside. Cathy Last edited by cathy; 06-22-2008 at 04:59 PM.

06-22-2008, 06:02 PM	#45 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Tarik, I understand what you mean. I think the difference is, within those cultures, it's perfectly fine for men to do those things and that's why there's a disconnect. Western concepts of 'manly' are not the same as Middle Eastern, or Hawaiian. In Hawai'i, nobody raises an eyebrow at a man who says he dances hula (unless it's a tourist). Therefore you often don't see them trying to overcompensate by acting macho (unless it's a war hula, where showing off is sort of the point). I always found this rather odd, as often gender division in Hawai'i is even more prevalent than it is on the mainland. I think, or hope, that the idea is to encourage Western thought to come around more to that way of seeing dance. I've been playing around with ideas for posters advertising my classes, letting men know that I teach them. I have been wondering how I can put it/what photo I can put on it to make it seem OK for them to do. Any ideas, anybody? __________________ www.breamorgiane.com Last edited by Brea; 06-22-2008 at 06:06 PM.

06-22-2008, 06:35 PM	#47 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi Caroline, Oh yes, I am aware of the ME gender stereotypes, as well as the Hawaiian. However, dance does not seem to fall within that category as much as it does in the West. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

06-22-2008, 06:48 PM	#48 (permalink)
Sara V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Wales/Yorkshire Posts: 1,160	I'm not too sure about the stereotypes that girls and boys MUST like this and that. Perhaps it applies where you live, but here it is not so. Yes there are general sterotypes, but it is not that we must or mustn't do or like something, just that generally different genders do. For example a typical night at the pub. I LOVE ale, cider, owt in a pint glass. Give me a pint of larger and I'm a happy bunny. Generally this is seen as a guys drink because it's mostly guys that like it. It's not because they must, just there prefere it. Most of my girl friends will get spirits with soft drinks or wine. I abhor wine, but enjoy spirits. They don't get it because they've been programmed to think that it's girly, they just enjoy it. I think this is what makes for the difference between the sexes as seen and understood as general. People do things they enjoy. Stereotypes like this exist because generally it's what a large majority of the sex enjoys doing. All my girl friends, whatever their background, enjoy going clothes shopping. They like to dress themselves up in whatever fashion. But I know guys that like it too. It's just more of my guy friends would rather go to play rugby than go shopping. It's just how it is. No one is saying or influencing them. They are simply doing what they want to do. I know a lot of the rugby team enjoy clothes shopping. I think people rarely act by stereotypes, they just do as they please, and it so happens that these things can generally be stereotyped. That is the case of things here at any rate. __________________ With a little bit of this and a little bit of that, now shake your bum.... :P

06-22-2008, 06:18 PM	#46 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,375	The Middle East does have gender stereotypes although holding hands, dancing and greeting with kisses are perfectly ok. There are definate roles for both men and women and rules of society in relation to both genders. What men generally are able to do with MED is take the aspect of MED culture which is acceptable and bring it into their dance. I cant explain this well. There are things in MED which men can adopt whilst rejecting other aspects. Having the freedom to dance in this way without being judged for is one of them. Women do the same, we often take the things we like from the Middle East and express it because it allows us to do things which our own cultures may frown upon.

06-22-2008, 08:35 PM	#49 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 444	Interesting what you say there Sara, as I do know with the younger, the traditional male and female stereotypes are not as prevalent, this I am seeing in Britain, and welcome it as a good thing, maybe there is a possibility that Britain is moving forward. You see, we are now seeing as far as cosmetics goes, cosmetics for men, and a whole industry being raised up on making a male make the best of themselves, clothing and even 'man bags'. Now I understand this could be an untapped area for marketing to make a living in the already swamped women's personal care industries, but when I was younger, men did not wear cosmetics and moisturiser, what was that ? Oh, to moisturise the skin, why ? But, now it has all changed, and male attitudes are changing with it. Hopefully for the better Now having said that about the personal care industries nor targeting men, it does occur that us later males are different. Different in that aside from aftershaves, cosmetics for men are something very new, as are some of the fashions and with that the attitudes, just as it is for the older generation, what we do in this present generation is different to the older and their attitudes. We of our age group have been brought up with the notion that males who dance are different. My youth, well males who gyrated around a dance floor were seen as strange and possibly 'puffy' as we used to say. Discos and the like, the females danced and the males quaffed their ale. Occaisionaly a male drunk enough would get up to dance, well, they got up onto the dance floor, but it wasn't dance, more of a case of someone wanted to show they were brave in entering an area where angels fear to tread. I remember one person who dressed differently and kept himself to himself, when a particular song came on, he got up and impressively did his thing, a well rehearsed piece and pretty impressive at that, the likes of which we only saw on tv, only to get run out of the club for being different and possibly a 'puff'.Such were the attitudes to dance in my youth, it was not a man's thing to do. Oh, the elder generation often danced, but that was an elder thing, barn dances and ballroom dancing. I know no one of my age group who is male and dances, so this is where I base my oppinion on how males of my age group might see a male who dances, especially MED, as this in our past was pretty unusual, and what we knew of it, it was a female dance. It would be interesting to know of what age in reality those who might question a male who dances MED are. Is it just a product of the past, or is it the same now with the younger generation ? It would also be interesting to see how the younger generation of males view a male who does BD, thus indicating whether we are really moving forward or not. __________________ I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

06-23-2008, 01:35 AM	#50 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I do think some things are changing, which is a good thing. To be frank, where I am it's not that strange for a woman to be very tough. Not quite as much as I was though. There are still gender lines, and people don't like to cross them. I am glad to hear, Sara, that things are different where you are. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com