Not to fan any more flames but..... - Page 4

lizaj · 06-20-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Yes, you are the opening number and are also in the middle of the programme
but not as decoration for other performers...tut

an adornment to the stage..d'ya reckon?

Aniseteph · 06-20-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

...It has more to do with the mucked up brain washing that this society has done on women. The need some women have for male approval.

The other issues of people getting undue credit for mediocre talent also goes across the board. Our field is chuck full of women who god only knows why and how they got a name. Nothing more than good marketing because they certainly lack talent.

This is what I wanted to say and you've done it much better!

I really can see why some people have concerns about male only shows. With the pandering to men from a predominantly female audience (ooh, it's a man, he must know what he's talking about and even if he doesn't hats off for having a go and PS simper simper giggle blush) it could be a recipe for promotion of less than great dancing. Which of course already goes on by the shedload on various grounds - publicity, guru-worship, the divine right to commit ill-advised horrors in the name of creative self-expression...

Uncritical Man-worship is just another pitfall to add to the list, and IMO it is a big one because of the predominantly female crowd. We are much more likely to be critical of our fellow females, we are famous for it.

I don't do sisterhoody bonding much either. And I probably test high for introvertedyness. Introverted bellydancers, who'd have thought it...

Tarik Sultan · 06-21-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

This is what I wanted to say and you've done it much better!

I really can see why some people have concerns about male only shows. With the pandering to men from a predominantly female audience (ooh, it's a man, he must know what he's talking about and even if he doesn't hats off for having a go and PS simper simper giggle blush) it could be a recipe for promotion of less than great dancing. Which of course already goes on by the shedload on various grounds - publicity, guru-worship, the divine right to commit ill-advised horrors in the name of creative self-expression...

Uncritical Man-worship is just another pitfall to add to the list, and IMO it is a big one because of the predominantly female crowd. We are much more likely to be critical of our fellow females, we are famous for it.

I don't do sisterhoody bonding much either. And I probably test high for introvertedyness. Introverted bellydancers, who'd have thought it...

Yeah, but we already have this going on with people accepting all kinds of junk from a guy just because he happens to be of Middle Eastern descent. It even happens with women from the region as well. For some reason though, people don't see this as a problem and make all types of excuses to accommodate it. We've got people claiming to teach authentic folk dances when they wouldn't know the real thing if they sat in it, are not particularly talented and have no other claim to fame than they were born somewhere east of the Prime Meridian or had a parent or grandparent who was. So yes I can understand this fear and have been extremely vocal about it in the past and continue to be so.

I understand how annoying, disappointing it is to see women give away their power in the ways you describe, but all male shows will not make this any worse. It really is a neutral situation. Whether guys are all together in one place or separate in teaching at their own workshops, your going to have women make fools out of themselves because they need healing on some level. The only way we would not have thins in our community is if we didn't allow men to be dancers, teachers etc and that is not an option. Discussing this situation in the open and hopefully allowing women to examine their behavior and choices is the only way to change it. Saying all male shows contribute to the problem is a bit like men saying women have to veil because men find them seductive and can't control themselves.

khanjar · 06-21-2008, 01:07 AM

Well done Tarik,in your original post, you hit the nail on the head with what it means to be male and a male in this form of art. Yes, males can be competitive and brash, but not all males are like that. Some like to bond via sport be that doing it or being a supporter of, even the football hooligans bond with each other in their like interest, but if you are not of the sporting ilk, where is it you bond with your own sex.

I am an artist, a metalsmith, I am in the course of my day surrounded by women, who are attracted to the jewellery side of things, All but two of my friends are women, my bestest buddy is a woman, I am comfortable with women, but sometimes there is feeling of loneliness, as there is the need to from time to time be around ones own sex. I can accept this with women and encourage it, but the left out feeling is natural and is a need from time to time.

It is all well and good being accepted by women in a dance class where you are the only one who is not female, but though you are accepted as part of the whole, one tends to feel out side of the whole. When I start back at a class in the fall, there may be another male there, all depending on whether he is undergoing his gender reassignment surgery or not, so, a transsexual, from male to female, but is a male and so knows male, and there at least a bit of camaraderie perhaps.

I realise in the West BD is largely a female activity and us males wanting in is that we are a minority, but we are no threat, we wish not to dominate, as I suppose those of us who are attracted to this are not the competitive sporting kind, we just wish to join in , but do feel the need to be with our own from time to time, as I am sure women do.

If this is what an all male dance event is about, then I welcome it as an occaisional event as I do with an all female event, but I maintain on the whole an event should be just people who dance, sex irrelevant.

Zorba · 06-21-2008, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

...but I maintain on the whole an event should be just people who dance, sex irrelevant.

YES YES YES! This is my belief. I also realize it doesn't work for everyone.

There are some VERY nice, well thought out and thought provoking posts in this thread. I've always bonded easier with women than I have men. I didn't join this dance form for that purpose, but I won't deny that I enjoy the company as I relate better with most gals.

This said, I'm fully capable of bonding with men - it just has to be the "right" sort of guy. Like most guys, I'm magnetically attracted by an open car hood, and love to "shoot the sh*t" with the guys - but then I can go into the kitchen and join the hen party pretty seamlessly. However, full of themselves, asshat macho guys turn me off cold...

Tarik Sultan · 06-21-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Well done Tarik,in your original post, you hit the nail on the head with what it means to be male and a male in this form of art. Yes, males can be competitive and brash, but not all males are like that. Some like to bond via sport be that doing it or being a supporter of, even the football hooligans bond with each other in their like interest, but if you are not of the sporting ilk, where is it you bond with your own sex.

I am an artist, a metalsmith, I am in the course of my day surrounded by women, who are attracted to the jewellery side of things, All but two of my friends are women, my bestest buddy is a woman, I am comfortable with women, but sometimes there is feeling of loneliness, as there is the need to from time to time be around ones own sex. I can accept this with women and encourage it, but the left out feeling is natural and is a need from time to time.

It is all well and good being accepted by women in a dance class where you are the only one who is not female, but though you are accepted as part of the whole, one tends to feel out side of the whole. When I start back at a class in the fall, there may be another male there, all depending on whether he is undergoing his gender reassignment surgery or not, so, a transsexual, from male to female, but is a male and so knows male, and there at least a bit of camaraderie perhaps.

I realise in the West BD is largely a female activity and us males wanting in is that we are a minority, but we are no threat, we wish not to dominate, as I suppose those of us who are attracted to this are not the competitive sporting kind, we just wish to join in , but do feel the need to be with our own from time to time, as I am sure women do.

If this is what an all male dance event is about, then I welcome it as an occaisional event as I do with an all female event, but I maintain on the whole an event should be just people who dance, sex irrelevant.

This is exactly dead on. I think so far everyone's given some really good insights and feedback on this issue. It would have probably saved a lot of angst if someone had simply asked Serkan why he decided to do an all male show. Perhaps it's not too late to get him to chime in. There are so many ways to look at a situation. There are always possibly good or bad consequences to a lot of things. Its a matter of which we chose to empower.

Personally, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to make an all male show ALL the time, unless they were trying to commit professional suicide. One possible advantage is that people would get to see that not all male dancers are alike. Because we tend to be so few, people tend to think seen one seen them all. It would certainly take away the novelty effect. I know however, that I would never want to see the day when women are not able to dance. I love to see good male dancers, but a good female dancer has a charm that can't be duplicated and I would really miss that in my life. But every once in a while, It would be nice to not be "the unusual" dancer. I'd like to be "hey, look, there's the dancer". Instead of being the "male" dancer. Kinda of like being that "black" guy. I guess this sort of thing might help us to not be that in the future maybe.

Brea · 06-21-2008, 01:50 PM

Frankly the idea of 'sisterhood' or watching girl movies or whatever just makes me gak. So I'm not in that either. I have friends, male or female, and it never even occurred to me to have separate outings or anything. So I guess I don't have the same desire for sister/brotherhood. However, I know I am a space alien compared to most people, so I suppose these are just parts of humanity I don't quite understand.

Since equality is my goal, I feel a bit frightened by gender-oriented 'separate but equal' things. Stuff that annoys me includes:

Men can't bellydance, or if they do, they're gay. (Or dance at all.)

Women can't fight/work security/fight in the front lines/whatever. Or they're lesbians if they do (though not quite as often).

If you are a woman, you MUST LIKE:

Shopping
Girl Movies
Shoes
Schmaltzy crap
Hanging out with other women, having Oxygen-channel laughy get togethers.
The Oxygen Channel. Or whatever it's called now.

If you are a man, you MUST LIKE:

Cars
Hot Ladies in Bikinis, Of Which You Must Hang Posters on the Wall, Preferably Budweiser Models
Fighting
Beer
Being Silent
Spike Channel
Hanging out with other men, in a muscle-flexing, silent, beer-drinking fashion.

If you are EITHER/OR, you cannot ACTUALLY LIKE ANYTHING from the other gender's list, because we're ALL SO DIFFERENT. And we HAVE to be, because we're told we are.

And it sounds just like that, in my head, all shouty. It surrounds us every day, everywhere, and we have taken it in so well that we even have people throwing statistics and science around to prove it.

That said, due to what we've been taught to believe, I can see the interest in all male shows. However, it does make me wonder if that is equality or if it is just pointing out that there's still a divide?

adiemus · 06-22-2008, 09:05 AM

I'm not keen on 'if you're a woman you MUST like' statements... and to the same extent I would think that there are many men who feel just as grumpy about 'if you're a man you MUST like' statements....
Having said this - there is often a basis for the gender stereotypes that we refer to - it's just that they are only a stereotype, not applicable to each and every man, woman, child or geek.
Perhaps it's possible for some of us at least to treat each other as if we are human beings rather than carbon copies of some gender stereotype that we have been trained to identify with?
I hope so - and in my work in pain management at least, I hope I can have the ability to recognise that men have a softer side, women have a harder side - and all of us can appreciate good friendship!

khanjar · 06-22-2008, 11:05 AM

Yes, gender stereotypes and how they are damaging for all of us. Here is a good article on it and why men should accept feminism;

Why men should care about gender stereotypes - The F-Word

Some of us already have.

Tarik Sultan · 06-22-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Yes, gender stereotypes and how they are damaging for all of us. Here is a good article on it and why men should accept feminism;

Why men should care about gender stereotypes - The F-Word

Some of us already have.

That article kicked ass! The one thing they only touched on though is the way the G word is used to keep men in line. Every manipulator knows the way to get guys to go along with the program and do the stupidest things is to call him sissy, queer, gay, faggot. The Hawaiian DVD I talked about used the word Mahu. Apparently they never said exactly what a Mahu is, but apparently its, soft, fluffy, delicate. So to call a guy Mahu has the same implication as all the words in our culture, weak, frail=not a real man.

I rejected the stereotype long ago and I did have to pay the price for it. I saw that I was supposed to be this hypersexual brute running through women/but the very qualities we were supposed to embody keep us from being able to have emotionally satisfying relationships with women. Seeing my mother's disastrously failed marriage drove it home. This is why I had to learn to not be bothered by the names and to develop an analytical approach to show how illogical many of the things we take for granted are.

This is why the idea of men in Oriental dance and men in Hula excites me. Because it has the potential to deconstruct the patriarchal paradigm of a masculinity that is emotionally toxic and shallow. To see that a man can be gentle, sensual, graceful and still be MASCULINE, or manly. This is why I prefer the concept of Yin/Yang to masculine and feminine. To be healthy beings we need to be free to access both of these energies. We need to be balanced. These forces work in compliment to create a whole. Yin is soft, nurturing, cool etc, yang is hard, assertive, hot. Winter and summer are an example of how these two forces combine to make a whole/one year.
Our standards of masculinity is unbalanced on the Yang. Out of control and therefore, very destructive. Traditional femininity leaves women passive, weak, victimized and unfulfilled in life. To me dances like Hula and Sharki/Baladi are a blend of the Yin/Yang, another reason why I reject the concept of the dance as being "feminine essence" Its both. The flowing hands undulations figure 8 are Yin, the sharp and bold hip movements are Yang.

Perhaps this is another reason why I'm sensitive on the issue of effeminate men in this dance. To me it reenforces the stereotypes and an opportunity to teach a lesson is missed. Men need to see men who look and act like "men" expressing the Yin energy to know they can do the same without losing their manliness. by the same token though, there is a healing that needs to happen with the issue of effeminacy, accepting those who do express this energy. Perhaps when men are more balanced in their energies they will not feel threatened or need to reject guys who express more of a Yin energy.

06-21-2008, 01:07 AM	#34 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 444	Well done Tarik,in your original post, you hit the nail on the head with what it means to be male and a male in this form of art. Yes, males can be competitive and brash, but not all males are like that. Some like to bond via sport be that doing it or being a supporter of, even the football hooligans bond with each other in their like interest, but if you are not of the sporting ilk, where is it you bond with your own sex. I am an artist, a metalsmith, I am in the course of my day surrounded by women, who are attracted to the jewellery side of things, All but two of my friends are women, my bestest buddy is a woman, I am comfortable with women, but sometimes there is feeling of loneliness, as there is the need to from time to time be around ones own sex. I can accept this with women and encourage it, but the left out feeling is natural and is a need from time to time. It is all well and good being accepted by women in a dance class where you are the only one who is not female, but though you are accepted as part of the whole, one tends to feel out side of the whole. When I start back at a class in the fall, there may be another male there, all depending on whether he is undergoing his gender reassignment surgery or not, so, a transsexual, from male to female, but is a male and so knows male, and there at least a bit of camaraderie perhaps. I realise in the West BD is largely a female activity and us males wanting in is that we are a minority, but we are no threat, we wish not to dominate, as I suppose those of us who are attracted to this are not the competitive sporting kind, we just wish to join in , but do feel the need to be with our own from time to time, as I am sure women do. If this is what an all male dance event is about, then I welcome it as an occaisional event as I do with an all female event, but I maintain on the whole an event should be just people who dance, sex irrelevant. __________________ I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

06-21-2008, 01:50 PM	#37 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Frankly the idea of 'sisterhood' or watching girl movies or whatever just makes me gak. So I'm not in that either. I have friends, male or female, and it never even occurred to me to have separate outings or anything. So I guess I don't have the same desire for sister/brotherhood. However, I know I am a space alien compared to most people, so I suppose these are just parts of humanity I don't quite understand. Since equality is my goal, I feel a bit frightened by gender-oriented 'separate but equal' things. Stuff that annoys me includes: Men can't bellydance, or if they do, they're gay. (Or dance at all.) Women can't fight/work security/fight in the front lines/whatever. Or they're lesbians if they do (though not quite as often). If you are a woman, you MUST LIKE: Shopping Girl Movies Shoes Schmaltzy crap Hanging out with other women, having Oxygen-channel laughy get togethers. The Oxygen Channel. Or whatever it's called now. If you are a man, you MUST LIKE: Cars Hot Ladies in Bikinis, Of Which You Must Hang Posters on the Wall, Preferably Budweiser Models Fighting Beer Being Silent Spike Channel Hanging out with other men, in a muscle-flexing, silent, beer-drinking fashion. If you are EITHER/OR, you cannot ACTUALLY LIKE ANYTHING from the other gender's list, because we're ALL SO DIFFERENT. And we HAVE to be, because we're told we are. And it sounds just like that, in my head, all shouty. It surrounds us every day, everywhere, and we have taken it in so well that we even have people throwing statistics and science around to prove it. That said, due to what we've been taught to believe, I can see the interest in all male shows. However, it does make me wonder if that is equality or if it is just pointing out that there's still a divide? __________________ www.breamorgiane.com Last edited by Brea; 06-21-2008 at 04:35 PM.

06-22-2008, 09:05 AM	#38 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	I'm not keen on 'if you're a woman you MUST like' statements... and to the same extent I would think that there are many men who feel just as grumpy about 'if you're a man you MUST like' statements.... Having said this - there is often a basis for the gender stereotypes that we refer to - it's just that they are only a stereotype, not applicable to each and every man, woman, child or geek. Perhaps it's possible for some of us at least to treat each other as if we are human beings rather than carbon copies of some gender stereotype that we have been trained to identify with? I hope so - and in my work in pain management at least, I hope I can have the ability to recognise that men have a softer side, women have a harder side - and all of us can appreciate good friendship! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

06-22-2008, 11:05 AM	#39 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 444	Yes, gender stereotypes and how they are damaging for all of us. Here is a good article on it and why men should accept feminism; Why men should care about gender stereotypes - The F-Word Some of us already have. __________________ I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.