Not to fan any more flames but..... - Page 3

Caroline_afifi · 06-20-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Dear Caroline:

Not playing games, honestly, I didn't read the issues raised on the other thread. Could you just briefly list what some of the concerns are? I can certainly see that there are two ways of looking at an issue and have no problem with that. So if there are legitimate issues, I'd like to know so that I can be aware.

Oh it was just the stuff I have said in the past like the way women pander to men and go all silly etc. and stuff like that.
It was mostly to do with the way women go crazy in the presence of male dancers. Also a while back i related my experience of a rather rude and ignorant teacher who favoured only young slim girls etc.
The male scene is as diverse at the female scene.
All said and done, male dancers are still relatively new in the UK.

Perhpas the guys who dont need the male company like this dance to be closer to women? some men feel more comfortable around women but I do know personally some women who do this dance to escape men.
There is no easy answer.

Caroline_afifi · 06-20-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

I'm not much of a bond-er myself, registering way on the upper end of the Briggs Myers scale for introvertism,

Ha!! I am an INTP!!

what are you??

Sara · 06-20-2008, 06:49 PM

I do get on with my classmates really well, but I wouldn't call it a sisterhood like some do.

Caroline_afifi · 06-20-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

It was in " " and we do come first in the programme ..I assume

Yes, you are the opening number and are also in the middle of the programme
but not as decoration for other performers...tut

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

I'm not much of a bond-er myself, registering way on the upper end of the Briggs Myers scale for introvertism, but I can sympathize with feelings of disconnection within one's profession, Tarik. I was one of the few women in a traditionally male field for a lot of years (actually, I was the only one I knew of for the first 15 years). Any time you swing through Wyoming, give me a call and I'll offer empathy, sympathy, some decent wine, and as bonding an experience as I am capable of.

Would you grow chest hair for me?

Seriously, this is exactly the same situation. Mind you now, it isn't that anyone has discriminated against me really. I mean I did know that there was no other teacher that was going to encourage me the way Morocco did, but this was compensated by what I did get. I certainly am welcome wherever I go, but there's just that something. Like going to Rakassa, seeing all those fabulous costumes knowing there will never be one in my size, so I can't share in the shopping experience the same way. Sounds silly, but you know what I mean, there's just that thing. Like if you were the only American in the middle of China. Even though you are made to feel welcome, you know you will never be able to relate quite the same way or experience the world from the exact same perspective. Not having any other guys to watch dancing was huge. I didn't have a clue or a sense of security as to how to be a man in this dance till I went to Egypt and saw them. It gave me a clear vision of how men express themselves physically in the dance and how to bring that energy to the stage. I could compare it to what the women were doing and see the similarities and differences. I guess its like how girls feel seeing a successful woman like Oprah, or the way she felt seeing a black woman like Diane Carrol on T.V. in the 60's. Some people need that connection, others don't. None is better than the other, just different.

Brea · 06-20-2008, 08:07 PM

I guess I kind of understand it from both sides. For myself, I line up a bit more with Mark and Zorba (closer to Mark though). However, I can see your point, Tarik. (and pm'd/emailed you btw) I think the hardest part is the smaller number of men in the dance and there was no frame of reference. I hope that is changing now and also hope that I am helping.

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Oh it was just the stuff I have said in the past like the way women pander to men and go all silly etc. and stuff like that.
It was mostly to do with the way women go crazy in the presence of male dancers. Also a while back i related my experience of a rather rude and ignorant teacher who favoured only young slim girls etc.
The male scene is as diverse at the female scene.
All said and done, male dancers are still relatively new in the UK.

Perhpas the guys who dont need the male company like this dance to be closer to women? some men feel more comfortable around women but I do know personally some women who do this dance to escape men.
There is no easy answer.

No, there is no simple easy answer at all. With regards to the basic issues you mentioned, I can see and understand that, but it really has nothing to do with male dancers persay. It has more to do with the mucked up brain washing that this society has done on women. The need some women have for male approval. Many men may be unaware of it, but thank god my teacher was Morocco, so you know she explained it to me. For this reason, I know how to deal with it when it comes up.

The other issues of people getting undue credit for mediocre talent also goes across the board. Our field is chuck full of women who god only knows why and how they got a name. Nothing more than good marketing because they certainly lack talent. But you know what, these types of things, while annoying, exist in every profession and dance field and are not limited to men. Therefore, its unfair to single men out and say this is what is going to happen, when it already has been happening with all the female dancers and teachers. There are women out there who belittle and insult students in workshops, tell them they're hopeless, will never get it, they should give up. I heard of one teacher who told her students they'd never get it unless they learned Arabic and converted to Islam! There certainly is no lack of female performers and teachers who look down on other participants as being no better than peons rather than colleagues. So what makes it worse if the offender is a man? Are there going to be stupid guys coming on the scene? Without a doubt, but they won't be stupid cause they're guys, but because they are silly people and silly people with over blown egos come in all genders and sexual persuasions.

Suheir · 06-20-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Without a doubt, but they won't be stupid cause they're guys, but because they are silly people and silly people with over blown egos come in all genders and sexual persuasions.

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

I guess I kind of understand it from both sides. For myself, I line up a bit more with Mark and Zorba (closer to Mark though). However, I can see your point, Tarik. (and pm'd/emailed you btw) I think the hardest part is the smaller number of men in the dance and there was no frame of reference. I hope that is changing now and also hope that I am helping.

I guess I really am more like you as well. How could I not be? I'm not debilitated by the situation or crying myself to sleep at night, but it would be nice to share with my fellow guys, but I've also encountered other guys who saw another guy as "the competition". It's just been cool when I've been in the situation with other guys I could relate to in the dance.

Yes things are beginning to change and we have people like you to thank for helping it happen for sure. As I just said in the previous post, not having a frame of reference was/is huge. Not having a cultural frame of reference makes it even harder, but this is also something that impacts on women as well.

By the way, I did get the messages and will be contacting you just as soon as I finish this message.

Caroline_afifi · 06-20-2008, 08:28 PM

[

Quote:

QUOTE=Tarik Sultan;77168]No, there is no simple easy answer at all. With regards to the basic issues you mentioned, I can see and understand that, but it really has nothing to do with male dancers persay. It has more to do with the mucked up brain washing that this society has done on women. The need some women have for male approval. Many men may be unaware of it, but thank god my teacher was Morocco, so you know she explained it to me. For this reason, I know how to deal with it when it comes up.

Yes, this was my point in the other threads.

Quote:

The other issues of people getting undue credit for mediocre talent also goes across the board. Our field is chuck full of women who god only knows why and how they got a name. Nothing more than good marketing because they certainly lack talent. But you know what, these types of things, while annoying, exist in every profession and dance field and are not limited to men. Therefore, its unfair to single men out and say this is what is going to happen, when it already has been happening with all the female dancers and teachers. There are women out there who belittle and insult students in workshops, tell them they're hopeless, will never get it, they should give up. I heard of one teacher who told her students they'd never get it unless they learned Arabic and converted to Islam! There certainly is no lack of female performers and teachers who look down on other participants as being no better than peons rather than colleagues. So what makes it worse if the offender is a man? Are there going to be stupid guys coming on the scene? Without a doubt, but they won't be stupid cause they're guys, but because they are silly people and silly people with over blown egos come in all genders and sexual persuasions.

[/quote]

It certainly does happen across the board. I also said this somewhere midst my verbal jumble in previous posts (in the no hope thread).

I ended one post by saying there is enough crap out there without making good male dancers our enemies and I stand by this.
With any kind of issue like this we are either in danger of over simplifying or over complicating the issue.
My theory is dont worry 'worry' til 'worry' worries you. For some they are already worried.

We need to keep a cool head about it or the possible danger is men will feel threatend and 'group' as a form of security. This will end real lively debate and critique of male dancers and this is more my immediate concern.
Til now the debate about male dancers has been lively and thoughtful. I dont want this to end because male dancers feel under attack and need to stick together. Do you know what I mean?

06-20-2008, 06:49 PM	#23 (permalink)
Sara V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Wales/Yorkshire Posts: 1,160	I do get on with my classmates really well, but I wouldn't call it a sisterhood like some do. __________________ With a little bit of this and a little bit of that, now shake your bum.... :P

06-20-2008, 08:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I guess I kind of understand it from both sides. For myself, I line up a bit more with Mark and Zorba (closer to Mark though). However, I can see your point, Tarik. (and pm'd/emailed you btw) I think the hardest part is the smaller number of men in the dance and there was no frame of reference. I hope that is changing now and also hope that I am helping. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com