Not to fan any more flames but..... - Page 2

Mya · 06-20-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Hi Tarik,

I dont fully know what the fear is about, as fears also have other roots.
But it is not hard to understand that women have been experiencing discrimination for .....eons, and particularly women of certain generation have had to fight for every little bit of equality whilst pig headed men have dominated and passed them off as silly women. Perhaps if we stand back we may see the root of the fears and the triggers.

This is precisely what i thought when i read Tarik's post. Tarik, I think that you guys need all-male events as much as we occasionally need all female events. I support male dancers with all my heart because in many societies today it takes as much for a man to do oriental dance as it does a woman. The scrutiny is as fierce even if from a different angle.

At least though if we stop to consider the other side of it, the opposition of which ever females in question won't seem so random and may not prove to be as frustrating as if we had nothing to reference it to.

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 02:07 PM

Dear group:

I wish I had the time to answer all your replies individually. I'm glad that you do understand. I know that at times I must seem like I'm beating issues to death and my posts can be like reading books, but its because I really want to be understood and I want to help. I'd like to think that I'm spiritually evolved, but, I am still human and that evolution is a process. Sometimes I live up to my principles, other times.... weeell....

Some one brought up the question of men socializing in Egypt. The answer is yes they do, very much. On the professional level, even though its not Oriental, they do have the folk groups, so that does provide them the opportunity to bond. Socially, guys get together and dance, but it's not like they get together specifically to dance per say. They are friends and so when there are situations to socialize/celebrate, they will also dance with and for each other. You also mentioned the dynamic that most men's socializing has to do with competition and one up-manship. This is true on many levels, although I think the dynamic of the team gives some bonding. However, dance allows men to be okay with getting in touch with a more gentle energy in a way that sports do not. I wish I could show you guys the DVD I just watched. I guess you could buy it, it really is great, especially the extras sections. Its called Na Kamalei: The Men of Hula and can be purchased at NeoFlix.com

You can see previews of the movie at: Independent Lens - an Independent Film Festival in your Living Room | PBS
Just type in the title

This is a clip of their modern Hula at the competition

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 02:41 PM

Dear group:

I wish I had the time to answer all your replies individually. I'm glad that you do understand. I know that at times I must seem like I'm beating issues to death and my posts can be like reading books, but its because I really want to be understood and I want to help. I'd like to think that I'm spiritually evolved, but, I am still human and that evolution is a process. Sometimes I live up to my principles, other times.... weeell....

Some one brought up the question of men socializing in Egypt. The answer is yes they do, very much. On the professional level, even though its not Oriental, they do have the folk groups, so that does provide them the opportunity to bond. Socially, guys get together and dance, but it's not like they get together specifically to dance per say. They are friends and so when there are situations to socialize/celebrate, they will also dance with and for each other. You also mentioned the dynamic that most men's socializing has to do with competition and one up-manship. This is true on many levels, although I think the dynamic of the team gives some bonding. However, dance allows men to be okay with getting in touch with a more gentle energy in a way that sports do not. I wish I could show you guys the DVD I just watched. I guess you could buy it, it really is great, especially the extras sections. Its called Na Kamalei: The Men of Hula and can be purchased at NeoFlix.com

You can see previews of the movie at: Independent Lens - an Independent Film Festival in your Living Room | PBS
Just type in the title

This is a clip of their modern Hula at the competition

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Hi Tarik,

I dont know where to start with this. I understand exactly what you are saying and was trying to say it myself in other posts but ended up jumping all over the place as usual.
As you know, I am not one of those women who feel threatend in anyway. I have my own perspective on this. There are aspects I have outlined in the male dance scene which does make me feel uncomfortable as I have also discussed.

Beings Devils advocate here (and I may be way off base) but the woman who is objecting does feel a genuine fear around the all male show situation.
I hear a prediction of what this person has said in the past about Tribal and Fusions etc. becoming more than people ever imagined and threatening the dance as we know it.

It seems the same arguments and discussions took place in the same way over these topics too and no one listened but it happend.
I have debated why I dont think this will be the case, but really none of us know.
I dont fully know what the fear is about, as fears also have other roots.
But it is not hard to understand that women have been experiencing discrimination for .....eons, and particularly women of certain generation have had to fight for every little bit of equality whilst pig headed men have dominated and passed them off as silly women. Perhaps if we stand back we may see the root of the fears and the triggers.

These are type written posts at the end of the day and we rarely know the human being behind the keyboard. Thanks Tarik for your very personal insight to your feelings as it has give us a human perspective on this.
Perhaps we should try to consider the human behind the keyboard more often as I too am guilty of wanting to throw tomatos at the monitor.

We get very passionate about these topics and sometimes we end up feeling hurt and frustrated, but lets try to keep a perspective on this. It is a discussion forum and very few people say what they really mean.
These forums sound like they are speaking for the large majorities but they dont. Over the last few months I have realised it is really very few people and the rest just watch waiting for action and then PM people to load their guns so they come in shooting off for their entertainment.

I suppose what I am saying is, members discuss everything in any way we want but be aware of the bear baiters who feed off this.
And above all support each other and keep a realistic perspective on it.

Dear Caroline:

Not playing games, honestly, I didn't read the issues raised on the other thread. Could you just briefly list what some of the concerns are? I can certainly see that there are two ways of looking at an issue and have no problem with that. So if there are legitimate issues, I'd like to know so that I can be aware.

Mark_Balahadia · 06-20-2008, 03:10 PM

You are certainly not fanning any flames by posting this, Tarik.

I do not need brotherhood in dancing. In fact, I usually find it very odd when female dancers talk about sisterhood. It is not that I do not want to make friends or that I am anti-social...far from it I am a very social person and some of my best friends are dancers. I have both male and female belly dancer friends but I certainly do not have a need for brotherhood with other male dancers. I make friends and bond with people on a case to case basis regardless of gender...I certainly won't bond with a group of male dancers or feel any sense of brotherhood either just because I'm with a group of male belly dancers.

Tarik Sultan · 06-20-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia

You are certainly not fanning any flames by posting this, Tarik.

I do not need brotherhood in dancing. In fact, I usually find it very odd when female dancers talk about sisterhood. It is not that I do not want to make friends or that I am anti-social...far from it I am a very social person and some of my best friends are dancers. I have both male and female belly dancer friends but I certainly do not have a need for brotherhood with other male dancers. I make friends and bond with people on a case to case basis regardless of gender...I certainly won't bond with a group of male dancers or feel any sense of brotherhood either just because I'm with a group of male belly dancers.

I can understand that that is the way you feel, but I hope you can understand and appreciate that other people may feel differently. To each their own.

lizaj · 06-20-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Backing.. backing??

there is no one backing!!

Detension for you at next rehearsal.

Awwww...I always wanted to be a Supreme

Zorba · 06-20-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia

You are certainly not fanning any flames by posting this, Tarik.

I do not need brotherhood in dancing. In fact, I usually find it very odd when female dancers talk about sisterhood. It is not that I do not want to make friends or that I am anti-social...far from it I am a very social person and some of my best friends are dancers. I have both male and female belly dancer friends but I certainly do not have a need for brotherhood with other male dancers. I make friends and bond with people on a case to case basis regardless of gender...I certainly won't bond with a group of male dancers or feel any sense of brotherhood either just because I'm with a group of male belly dancers.

This actually is very similar to my own feelings - but as always, this is what works for ME, I don't necessarily expect ANYONE else to be the same!

My only difference from Mark is that I do feel a VERY strong bonding with my dance sisters. I recently "lost" my instructor of the last 4+ years; and I miss her and my dance sisters very much. I'm in different classes now, and must re-form the "sisterhood bond" with new and/or "barely know" dance sisters. But that's OK, its already happening.

As for "all male" shows; frankly, I don't really see the point.

lizaj · 06-20-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Backing.. backing??

there is no one backing!!

Detension for you at next rehearsal.

It was in " " and we do come first in the programme ..I assume

Shanazel · 06-20-2008, 06:24 PM

I'm not much of a bond-er myself, registering way on the upper end of the Briggs Myers scale for introvertism, but I can sympathize with feelings of disconnection within one's profession, Tarik. I was one of the few women in a traditionally male field for a lot of years (actually, I was the only one I knew of for the first 15 years). Any time you swing through Wyoming, give me a call and I'll offer empathy, sympathy, some decent wine, and as bonding an experience as I am capable of.

06-20-2008, 02:07 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Dear group: I wish I had the time to answer all your replies individually. I'm glad that you do understand. I know that at times I must seem like I'm beating issues to death and my posts can be like reading books, but its because I really want to be understood and I want to help. I'd like to think that I'm spiritually evolved, but, I am still human and that evolution is a process. Sometimes I live up to my principles, other times.... weeell.... Some one brought up the question of men socializing in Egypt. The answer is yes they do, very much. On the professional level, even though its not Oriental, they do have the folk groups, so that does provide them the opportunity to bond. Socially, guys get together and dance, but it's not like they get together specifically to dance per say. They are friends and so when there are situations to socialize/celebrate, they will also dance with and for each other. You also mentioned the dynamic that most men's socializing has to do with competition and one up-manship. This is true on many levels, although I think the dynamic of the team gives some bonding. However, dance allows men to be okay with getting in touch with a more gentle energy in a way that sports do not. I wish I could show you guys the DVD I just watched. I guess you could buy it, it really is great, especially the extras sections. Its called Na Kamalei: The Men of Hula and can be purchased at NeoFlix.com You can see previews of the movie at: Independent Lens - an Independent Film Festival in your Living Room \| PBS Just type in the title This is a clip of their modern Hula at the competition Last edited by Tarik Sultan; 06-20-2008 at 02:40 PM.

06-20-2008, 02:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Okay lets try that again Dear group: I wish I had the time to answer all your replies individually. I'm glad that you do understand. I know that at times I must seem like I'm beating issues to death and my posts can be like reading books, but its because I really want to be understood and I want to help. I'd like to think that I'm spiritually evolved, but, I am still human and that evolution is a process. Sometimes I live up to my principles, other times.... weeell.... Some one brought up the question of men socializing in Egypt. The answer is yes they do, very much. On the professional level, even though its not Oriental, they do have the folk groups, so that does provide them the opportunity to bond. Socially, guys get together and dance, but it's not like they get together specifically to dance per say. They are friends and so when there are situations to socialize/celebrate, they will also dance with and for each other. You also mentioned the dynamic that most men's socializing has to do with competition and one up-manship. This is true on many levels, although I think the dynamic of the team gives some bonding. However, dance allows men to be okay with getting in touch with a more gentle energy in a way that sports do not. I wish I could show you guys the DVD I just watched. I guess you could buy it, it really is great, especially the extras sections. Its called Na Kamalei: The Men of Hula and can be purchased at NeoFlix.com You can see previews of the movie at: Independent Lens - an Independent Film Festival in your Living Room \| PBS Just type in the title This is a clip of their modern Hula at the competition

06-20-2008, 03:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
Mark_Balahadia Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: balad ra'eesa Posts: 204	You are certainly not fanning any flames by posting this, Tarik. I do not need brotherhood in dancing. In fact, I usually find it very odd when female dancers talk about sisterhood. It is not that I do not want to make friends or that I am anti-social...far from it I am a very social person and some of my best friends are dancers. I have both male and female belly dancer friends but I certainly do not have a need for brotherhood with other male dancers. I make friends and bond with people on a case to case basis regardless of gender...I certainly won't bond with a group of male dancers or feel any sense of brotherhood either just because I'm with a group of male belly dancers. __________________ badde 3eish!!! www.markbalahadia.com

06-20-2008, 06:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	I'm not much of a bond-er myself, registering way on the upper end of the Briggs Myers scale for introvertism, but I can sympathize with feelings of disconnection within one's profession, Tarik. I was one of the few women in a traditionally male field for a lot of years (actually, I was the only one I knew of for the first 15 years). Any time you swing through Wyoming, give me a call and I'll offer empathy, sympathy, some decent wine, and as bonding an experience as I am capable of.