Tarik Sultan

Its a common myth in Egypt that the people are hot blooded because of the heat of the sun. Urban myth etc. Yes you right, its the music that stirs the spirit.

[quote=khanjar;77914]
So with this, a feeling on this form of dance being natural, then why not learn the dance moves, it can only enhance the feeling of natural relaxation.
[quote=khanjar;77914]

Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say here. Could you explain? I don't think that the problem for most westerners is learning the movements, although very often they don't execute them in the same way as natives. I think the problem is that they try to approach the movements from their own cultural perspective because they were not exposed to or aware of how it is done in context. For instance, making the movements bigger and faster because they don't understand that they should be interpreting not only the rhythm, but the texture of the music as well, or letting the body react the way it was designed to, rather than artificially isolating everything.

Zorba

Yep. Interesting thread - I like listening!
Yep.
Yep.

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khanjar

[quote=Tarik Sultan;77921]Its a common myth in Egypt that the people are hot blooded because of the heat of the sun. Urban myth etc. Yes you right, its the music that stirs the spirit.

[quote=khanjar;77914]
So with this, a feeling on this form of dance being natural, then why not learn the dance moves, it can only enhance the feeling of natural relaxation.
Ok, one of the big problems with me, is that I struggle to relax, when I try to bodily relax, the mind gets going and starts analysing everything. What I have found with the music, more often with the traditional and cabaret type stuff, is I just enjoy it and with this comes movement from me, a sinuous movement,in tune with the movement in the music it comes naturally, and my mind does not analyse, I don't think, am I doing this right or that right, I just move naturally and am relaxed.

Now, the chap in the video you posted said the dance being movement that came from the music as a natural thing, I can understand, as I do so myself naturally, but where I said what I do might not be seen as dance,is because it is my natural interpretation of what I am hearing without being au fait with accepted dance moves, but hip movements are there, a surprise to myself, the wonder is, the music does inspire. Now, I do this in private, where there is no one to ruin and comment, but to achieve the same in public without training, I would have to be fairly drunk, a state where I can enjoy just being and ignore others, the social setting, where one is there to have fun in a non serious way.

The learning of accepted dance movements, would , possibly negate the requirement for 'relaxants of the alcoholic kind' , as the sense would be, if I am dancing, then, I am doing something which is real in that they are learned moves, validation maybe.

I admire immensely those of a different culture or religion who are able to seriously relax and enjoy themselves without the requirement for stimulants.

Maybe it is us in the west that learn this dance are conscious of our movements, as it is common for us to analyse, perhaps it is this constant analysis which makes us different in our interpretation that you mentioned.We of the west seem to have a need to learn something which is accepted, perhaps exaggerated movements, the difference that you mentioned are a result of this need to do things right as per tuition, not the natural response to the music. Could it also be, us of the west are conscious of how we appear to others, much like the male, macho /masculine/ effeminacy thing, this limiting our natural spiritual selves.

A question, what came first, the music or the dance ?

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Tarik Sultan

[quote=khanjar;77944][quote=Tarik Sultan;77921]Its a common myth in Egypt that the people are hot blooded because of the heat of the sun. Urban myth etc. Yes you right, its the music that stirs the spirit.

I understand exactly what you mean. You know, this is what you see when you watch children in the culture. They start moving the second they hear the music and they emulate the grown ups for context as to what moves there are. The whole thing is assimilated, with no shame or expectations or anyone telling them, NO! DO IT THIS WAY! Because they don't have this pressure they are not self conscious and uptight. Look at these kids:


You know, I'd love to take you to Egypt and throw you in the middle of a bunch of street weddings. That would be the best way because the people are so eager to share and they don't judge you no matter how awkward you may be. Its a totally nurturing environment and I wish everybody could experience it for themselves.

Brea

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that one of the things I don't like about this dance is the whole "You can't do THAT move to THAT music!!!!" Hate, hate hate! I love getting carried away, and I don't like the little general in the head saying 'you MUST do this or that to this or that sound'. When I danced with my elderly Egyptian boss, he just danced, and was very masculine about it. I kind of feel that this stringent rulemaking is more Western than Middle Eastern; I don't think my boss was thinking 'oh no! I can't do this to this music!'

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karena

OK, when you hear someone speaking English as a second language (forgetting the whole American English distinction for a moment), do you ever think that just doesn't sound right? You maybe can't say why, but there's something in a phrasing that just sounds 'foreign'. You can understand them just fine, but there is something that marks it out as just not quite right. So it is fine if people speak like that to communicate, but when people want to learn 'proper' English, they need to learn these nuances that come naturally to a native speaker. So the native speaker can just speak without thought and it will sound right, but the non-native speaker might need to work at it to understand. I think about b/d in much the same way. I'm happy to communicate with people whose English is a bit haphazard, but if their goal is to speak great English, then I'm happy to correct them. It depends what their goal is and how they want to come across.

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Brea

Oh, I get it. I was just saying it bothers me.

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jenc

But what if the person doing all the correcting was a non-native speaker as well? That's what gets to me!!

Pirika Repun

I understand exactly what you mean. You know, this is what you see when you watch children in the culture. They start moving the second they hear the music and they emulate the grown ups for context as to what moves there are. The whole thing is assimilated, with no shame or expectations or anyone telling them, NO! DO IT THIS WAY! Because they don't have this pressure they are not self conscious and uptight. Look at these kids:

Dear Tarik

Yes, exactly!

In any culture and any kind of dance, when you see children dancing you can see their culture. Children dance without thinking anything, but just feel the music. Like boy in this video, he doesn’t think about how masculine he is or girls don’t think about how sexy they are. They just dance like all adults dance. Especially little girls dance together; they just enjoy the music and move their body! That is great about any kind of dance!

BTW I’m now in this forum, and first of all I have tremendous respect for Oriental Dance, and dancers who love this art. Especially I have great respect for male dancers, because this dance is female dominated world, and many ignorant people assume your sexuality and put in the wrong category. However, your love and respect for Oriental dance, and culture is huge, and you do not bothered by these people’s misinterpretations. Please keep going.

Tarik. I agree with you most of point, but about masculine and feminine, I have little bit different point of view. Like I said and you said when you look at kids dance, you can see they are NOT thinking about “masculine” or “feminine” but just dance with music what they feel. In the same way, if you feel the music, and you dance whatever you feel from it, it doesn’t matter it will be either masculine or feminine. I have been dancing Jazz, Hip-Hop, little bit ballet, Tap, African, Latin and many different kind of dances, and except ballet I had both male and female teachers. However, most of time, I like male teachers better than female teachers. I think (in my opinion) male dancers have well balanced masculine and feminine side. Regardless of their sexuality, they can be very sexy and strong at the same time, and graceful too. I’m not against female teachers (actually I’m more womanist (which Alice Walker said and I like it) than against women), but I feel more related with male dancers than female dancers. I don’t know why, maybe my masculine side is stronger than feminine side? I have no idea. Anyway, back to my point, when I watch male dancers such as you Tarik, Tito, Mark, and other dancers, I NEVER feel effeminate or girly. I feel “Graceful” and very artistic and I wish I were dance like that.

Khanjar. Please do not think too much about it. Just enjoy the music and dance with it whatever you feel from the music. One of my girl friends has basic techniques and work hard to learn correct moves, and she practice hard. However, when she tries to do improvisation, she freezes. She thinks too much techniques and choreography. I told her when you go to club and dance; you never think about steps, and techniques. Just enjoy the music and dance. Also you don’t know what song will come next, but what ever the music comes, you continue to dance. The same way for Oriental dance, and any kinds of dance, just enjoys the music and dance!

Zorba

Now this is one of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard! It reduces everything I've been trying to say on this subject into one succinct sentence!

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"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."