An interesting article by Ankh - Page 6

Zorba · 06-02-2008, 11:28 PM

Wow....

I go on vacation, and QUITE the discussion comes up!

No, I've never cared for Ankh's article either - but it does have the advantage of being restricted to his website, not quoted as "Biblical Gospel" (to use Christian phraseology) all over the 'net like Stephan's article is! I've even found Stephan's article translated into Russian!

When I was starting out, and doing my research, two dancers stood out from the crowd. The first was DaVid, who was very encouraging to me, the second is some guy named Tarid, or Tarot, or Tarik or something - he wrote some very good articles!

Aisha Azar · 06-03-2008, 12:25 AM

Dear Jen,

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

i am not saying that it is never submissive, nor even that it is not usually submissive - only that it was threatening and definately in that case a gesture of male supremacy over women!! If i had not been driving at 30 mph through a built up area, actually a small town in rural east anglia and not the sort of place you would have expected this at all, i would have been frightened. I don't see how you can read this as a gesture of submission in this case at all.

I thought I had said something before about how often men turn feminine elements and concepts into insults ( Son of a B--ch, C--k sucker, calling each other prissy things to insult, etc. I see this as possibly an extension of that.

Quote:

In many cases what is being said to you is not a direct contradiction of your position, only an assertion that things are not always black and white, but are sometine more complicated.

I don't recall saying that it is black and white. I thought it would be understood that we can all only speak in generalities. Another possibility here is that this was a kid goofing off with no thought about the victim whatsoever, either to intimidate or dominate. The only goal would be to amuse his friends with and himself, which is probably the most compelling drive in many young men, next to getting laid. Mooning is not gender specific as females do it, too.

Quote:

I am not questioning your education, but i was taught when I did my degree, that academic texts are meant to be criticised, so long as you can back it up.

I was taught the same things, but when the main consensus by serious researchers points to the same information and result over and over again, then it must be considered to have some merit, at least. This is the case with female/submissive rituals among primates, from most of the research I have read.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-03-2008, 02:37 AM

Could someone please tell me what the heck do monkey's asses have to do with Tito or Oriental Dance? Yes Tito likes to stick his butt out, and sooooo. Why some people persist in trying to read things into a dance that are not there? Okay, so lets say its a feminine gesture, last time I saw him dance he stood on the arm rests of a chair and shook his crotch in a guy's face. Was that a submissive feminine gesture or was it just bad taste? I think that is quite an aggressive gesture and if he's done it to me I would have punched him in the nutz!

You know sometimes dancers do things in their performances that have nothing to do with the dance per-say, but are just personal statements for whatever reason and are not a reflection of what we should emulate.
Zahar Hamdi use to hump the air with her legs wide apart. The night before I saw her, she was drunk as a skunk and spend half her show squatting in the middle of the dance florr cursing out the Saudis in the Audience aaaaand?

Souhair Zaki never stuck her ass out, nor did Negwa, Lucy or any other dancer I know except Dina and it was considered very risque. Some people do things to push buttons, gain some sensationalist publicity or because they momma never learned them right.

Hey here's a novel idea, why doesn't someone just ASK him why he does it? Oh yeah, I forgot, Arabs never tell you the truth... unless they're your special Arab friends. Well in any case, He's coming back to NYC in July, I'll take a chance and ask him.

jenc · 06-03-2008, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Jen,

I was taught the same things, but when the main consensus by serious researchers points to the same information and result over and over again, then it must be considered to have some merit, at least. This is the case with female/submissive rituals among primates, from most of the research I have read.
Regards,
A'isha

I don't know why i am bothering to answer this. I specifically said that I agreed that this would be the general meaning, particularly in animals. All I said was it was not universally so, and particularly so in the case I quoted.
The thing is you have to bend what is being said to you, as you cannot admit that there is ever an exception that proves the rule.

There is no way that a guy in a speeding car is exhibiting submissive behavour by mooning at me. He does it because he is being transgressive, because he is he wishes to push my buttons and offend me, NOT placate me. In this case it is aggressive behaviour. You have to take into account culture and meaning in dealing with people, you can't simply extrapolate from animals, even primates.

but I will from now do what I usually do and that is retire without taking it further, because there is no point.

khanjar · 06-03-2008, 08:24 AM

I would suspect in the natural human there would be characteristics seen in the animal kingdom, as we are not that far from it. And by that if someone is being natural in their performance, it is highly possible that they will display body movements that can be seen by our nearest animal relatives the primates.

It could be that we as humans are so messed up with trying to eradicate, hide or modify our natural behaviour, for the want of not appearing to be of the animal kingdom that we have lost sight of what it really is to be natural.

We have 'intellects' in our society who watch us, our daily movements and actions, constantly trying to analyse everything about us. These people like their predecessors interpret what they see in their own way and there add their own personal thoughts on the matter. This has been going on since perhaps time immemorial, but is more notable with the Victorian period and there after, Charles Darwin being a notable expert from the time who published works based upon his findings and there understandings, and also Sigmund Freud who became the recognised authority on workings of the mind.

Now with these experts and their understandings, it occurs that what might be seen as an undesireable quality in a natural human, can once recognised, be modified or attempts made to eradicate this quality for reasons perhaps based on no more than personal insecurity,or even the social and political flavours of the time. It is perhaps interesting to note, these 'experts' on human behaviour were around at the same time of the British Empire, and there, the British colonial impact on various parts of the world.

Because of mankinds apparent need to analyse and define itself,perhaps we have essentially lost what it is to be natural. When we are presented with what is true natural behaviour, we try to interpret it, often into two groups, masculine of feminine, leader or follower, when perhaps in reality it is just the way we are as natural creatures on this planet.

From what I have been told of dance, one has the ability to just get lost in it, perhaps getting lost in something, just doing without thinking, we just become natural humans, our natural selves shine through, which of course is analysed instead of enjoyed.

Tarik Sultan · 06-03-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

I would suspect in the natural human there would be characteristics seen in the animal kingdom, as we are not that far from it. And by that if someone is being natural in their performance, it is highly possible that they will display body movements that can be seen by our nearest animal relatives the primates.

It could be that we as humans are so messed up with trying to eradicate, hide or modify our natural behaviour, for the want of not appearing to be of the animal kingdom that we have lost sight of what it really is to be natural.

We have 'intellects' in our society who watch us, our daily movements and actions, constantly trying to analyse everything about us. These people like their predecessors interpret what they see in their own way and there add their own personal thoughts on the matter. This has been going on since perhaps time immemorial, but is more notable with the Victorian period and there after, Charles Darwin being a notable expert from the time who published works based upon his findings and there understandings, and also Sigmund Freud who became the recognised authority on workings of the mind.

Now with these experts and their understandings, it occurs that what might be seen as an undesireable quality in a natural human, can once recognised, be modified or attempts made to eradicate this quality for reasons perhaps based on no more than personal insecurity,or even the social and political flavours of the time. It is perhaps interesting to note, these 'experts' on human behaviour were around at the same time of the British Empire, and there, the British colonial impact on various parts of the world.

Because of mankinds apparent need to analyse and define itself,perhaps we have essentially lost what it is to be natural. When we are presented with what is true natural behaviour, we try to interpret it, often into two groups, masculine of feminine, leader or follower, when perhaps in reality it is just the way we are as natural creatures on this planet.

From what I have been told of dance, one has the ability to just get lost in it, perhaps getting lost in something, just doing without thinking, we just become natural humans, our natural selves shine through, which of course is analysed instead of enjoyed.

I don't deny that we humans still have primal urges, responses etc. The problem I think is like you said, we tend to over analyze things and see meanings where perhaps there aren't any. Trying to put meaning to a dancers movement is nothing more than speculation. My objection is to making statements as if they were gospel truth when in fact they are simply speculations based on the observer's perceptions. For example, in Gustave Flaubert's book on his travels to Egypt he describes a dancer doing a back bend. His interpretation of it was sexual. He described it as the dancer offering themselves to be f*u*ked, (his exact words not mine). In reality this move is not sexual at all, its just a back bend and is used not only in Egyptian dance, but in Indian, African, Mediterranean and LAtin dances as well.

So yes, we do have primal responses, many of them we do share with our primate relatives, but we are far more complex than they are and there is this thing called context. Why is Tito bending over, well maybe its because thats what he felt fit the music, maybe he's being cheeky since he knows he has a big butt and women scream when he shows it. Thing is, we just don't really know what's going on in his nogin so how can we make definitive statements with the certainty that we do? Think of how many times we've mis-read a persons facial expressions, or even their words. We need to be careful and what I find is that there are some people who are far too often careless with their words, (not you), and too quick to render their opinions as if they were universal gospel truths.

Aisha Azar · 06-03-2008, 02:32 PM

Dear Khanjar,

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

I would suspect in the natural human there would be characteristics seen in the animal kingdom, as we are not that far from it. And by that if someone is being natural in their performance, it is highly possible that they will display body movements that can be seen by our nearest animal relatives the primates.

Thank , Thankyou, THANKYOU for understanding this.

Quote:

It could be that we as humans are so messed up with trying to eradicate, hide or modify our natural behaviour, for the want of not appearing to be of the animal kingdom that we have lost sight of what it really is to be natural.

While I do not necessarily agree, I do see that in some cases, you have a point that might apply.

Quote:

We have 'intellects' in our society who watch us, our daily movements and actions, constantly trying to analyse everything about us. These people like their predecessors interpret what they see in their own way and there add their own personal thoughts on the matter. This has been going on since perhaps time immemorial, but is more notable with the Victorian period and there after, Charles Darwin being a notable expert from the time who published works based upon his findings and there understandings, and also Sigmund Freud who became the recognised authority on workings of the mind.

This happens constantly in dance and we all have our own opinions, and seem every one of us to stick to them like glue. But it is necessary to look at the dance, I think, from many different angles in order to get a full picture. We need to look at sociology, anthropology, economics, history, etc, in order to put the dance in cultural and other contexts and see it more clearly.

Quote:

Now with these experts and their understandings, it occurs that what might be seen as an undesireable quality in a natural human, can once recognised, be modified or attempts made to eradicate this quality for reasons perhaps based on no more than personal insecurity,or even the social and political flavours of the time. It is perhaps interesting to note, these 'experts' on human behaviour were around at the same time of the British Empire, and there, the British colonial impact on various parts of the world.

The thing is that we rarely look at the other side of the coin and think about the native impact on the colonials. I remember reading about how Alexander the Great's soldiers were pretty freaked out when he started acting too Persian. Often what happen with rulers is that they get sucked into living like the upper classes in the regions they colonize. the poor rarely get too much of a glimpse or begin living like the rich and the colonials rarely seem to have much contact with the poor except to make rules for them to live under. One reason that is is so easy to take over countries is that whoever is ruling rarely does impact the lives of the poor and lower middle class citizen very much. Paying taxes to one group is very much like paying taxes to another for those below a certain economic barrier.

Quote:

Because of mankinds apparent need to analyse and define itself,perhaps we have essentially lost what it is to be natural. When we are presented with what is true natural behaviour, we try to interpret it, often into two groups, masculine of feminine, leader or follower, when perhaps in reality it is just the way we are as natural creatures on this planet.

This is a Yin-Yang planet and those are truths here. In the animal, plant, and most other kingdoms and species I can think of besides a few one celled creatures, there is a definite feminine and masculine element. Ir is simply a way for us to help define and deal with the world around us. I can not speak for animals, but I think their rituals and ways of life might be something that helps them organize their own lives on some level that is not apparent to us. For example, why is the leader of a whale pod always an older female? Why do primates have both alpha males and females? How come male birds are generally prettier than female ones? there are a million things that let us know that the male/female thing is a part of living on this planet. I think there is nothing wrong with analysis and the why of things. It is part of being a normal, healthy human. My point with the dance is that belly dance has a feminine essence, but that there is no reason on earth why men can not dance, too. In countries of origin, it has generally and consistently been recognized and accepted as a female activity since its public debut in the 1920s. It has some characteristics of folkloric dances from those countries, and other elements that set it apart as well, one of them being that is is a dance developed by and performed by females. Again, this does not exclude men from performing it, but it would be nice if they gave a nod to this reality instead of fighting against it. Some men do, those who are not afraid of being labeled gay and can move with reality of the dance and their own inner selves can understand that we all have masculine and feminine attributes. This does not mean "Girly", but instead is a way of approaching the dance that gives credence to it nature. These are the ones who seem to make the best dancers.

Quote:

From what I have been told of dance, one has the ability to just get lost in it, perhaps getting lost in something, just doing without thinking, we just become natural humans, our natural selves shine through, which of course is analysed instead of enjoyed.

Perhaps for some of us, a deeper understanding of what we are doing gives us a deeper enjoyment. This is true for me. the more I understand the dance and all that has gone on around it, its development, it meanings, its connection to the cultures from which it springs, the more deeply I can express through the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-03-2008, 06:04 PM

Dear Khanjar:

There were two men, one woke up that morning looked up in the sky and said, the sky is blue. Another guy left his house that evening looked up and said look how black the sky is. One says its black one says its blue. Which one of them is right? I don't have to explain any deeper than this, you and everyone else here are adults and know exactly what I'm saying now and what I have been saying all along.

The sky is black, the sky is blue. One thing for sure, it ain't green!

Now if you haven't been totally turned off by how wacky this dance community is and decided to just totally go tribal, WELCOME. I'm sure you'll find your dance classes much more fun and far less neurotic!

jenc · 06-03-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

So yes, we do have primal responses, many of them we do share with our primate relatives, but we are far more complex than they are and there is this thing called context. Why is Tito bending over, well maybe its because thats what he felt fit the music, maybe he's being cheeky since he knows he has a big butt and women scream when he shows it. Thing is, we just don't really know what's going on in his nogin so how can we make definitive statements with the certainty that we do? Think of how many times we've mis-read a persons facial expressions, or even their words. We need to be careful and what I find is that there are some people who are far too often careless with their words, (not you), and too quick to render their opinions as if they were universal gospel truths.

I sure don't want to get in the way if anyone ever tells tito that his dancing has a feminine essence and that he is adopting a female submissive pose when he sticks his but out. i feel there would be too much blood for one of tender susceptibilities!!

Mark_Balahadia · 06-03-2008, 08:24 PM

ya Tariq, I do have to agree with you that we can argue about femininity and masculinity in Oriental Dance until we get sick!

By the way, I wrote an article on Sahar Hamdi. I did research as well as interviewed a dancer who worked with her extensively in Cairo and London. Although when Sahar was drunk (a dancer's life is not an easy life) she was out of control but when she wasn't she was a beautiful dancer. She could lip-sync to perfection and she had the most beautiful hands ever. Better than Mona Said, and Mona had amazing hands and arms. A lot of American dancers don't understand the importance of graceful and posed hands in Oriental Dance. I have seen more than a few "famous" American dancers with their hands positioned like claws, flipping uncontrollably, or even worse...flipping the bird Arabic style! I guess they never saw themselves in the mirror....

I sometimes get the impression that you prefer a sanitized version of belly dance. Suhair Zaki never did stick her arse out but she had an amazing musical ear. One reason why I think she became so famous was because she was an effective foil to Nagwa Fouad's "sex bomb" persona on stage.

You have mentioned your dislike of Dina's choice of costume, dancing style, and persona and yet this is the same reasons why she is so famous. Dina is like watching a coquettish school girl with her skirt hiked up too high prancing about and blushing when she does something naughty. Dina's influence is everywhere on the dancers of Cairo, including Tito. Sticking your bum out in a deep hip circle with optional butt wiggle has become a standard move in modern Egyptian style. I've even seen dancers from Lebanon and Syria do it. Like it or not, that move is here to stay!

06-02-2008, 11:28 PM	#51 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	Wow.... I go on vacation, and QUITE the discussion comes up! No, I've never cared for Ankh's article either - but it does have the advantage of being restricted to his website, not quoted as "Biblical Gospel" (to use Christian phraseology) all over the 'net like Stephan's article is! I've even found Stephan's article translated into Russian! When I was starting out, and doing my research, two dancers stood out from the crowd. The first was DaVid, who was very encouraging to me, the second is some guy named Tarid, or Tarot, or Tarik or something - he wrote some very good articles! __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

06-03-2008, 02:37 AM	#53 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	????? Could someone please tell me what the heck do monkey's asses have to do with Tito or Oriental Dance? Yes Tito likes to stick his butt out, and sooooo. Why some people persist in trying to read things into a dance that are not there? Okay, so lets say its a feminine gesture, last time I saw him dance he stood on the arm rests of a chair and shook his crotch in a guy's face. Was that a submissive feminine gesture or was it just bad taste? I think that is quite an aggressive gesture and if he's done it to me I would have punched him in the nutz! You know sometimes dancers do things in their performances that have nothing to do with the dance per-say, but are just personal statements for whatever reason and are not a reflection of what we should emulate. Zahar Hamdi use to hump the air with her legs wide apart. The night before I saw her, she was drunk as a skunk and spend half her show squatting in the middle of the dance florr cursing out the Saudis in the Audience aaaaand? Souhair Zaki never stuck her ass out, nor did Negwa, Lucy or any other dancer I know except Dina and it was considered very risque. Some people do things to push buttons, gain some sensationalist publicity or because they momma never learned them right. Hey here's a novel idea, why doesn't someone just ASK him why he does it? Oh yeah, I forgot, Arabs never tell you the truth... unless they're your special Arab friends. Well in any case, He's coming back to NYC in July, I'll take a chance and ask him.

06-03-2008, 08:24 PM	#60 (permalink)
Mark_Balahadia Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: balad ra'eesa Posts: 204	ya Tariq, I do have to agree with you that we can argue about femininity and masculinity in Oriental Dance until we get sick! By the way, I wrote an article on Sahar Hamdi. I did research as well as interviewed a dancer who worked with her extensively in Cairo and London. Although when Sahar was drunk (a dancer's life is not an easy life) she was out of control but when she wasn't she was a beautiful dancer. She could lip-sync to perfection and she had the most beautiful hands ever. Better than Mona Said, and Mona had amazing hands and arms. A lot of American dancers don't understand the importance of graceful and posed hands in Oriental Dance. I have seen more than a few "famous" American dancers with their hands positioned like claws, flipping uncontrollably, or even worse...flipping the bird Arabic style! I guess they never saw themselves in the mirror.... I sometimes get the impression that you prefer a sanitized version of belly dance. Suhair Zaki never did stick her arse out but she had an amazing musical ear. One reason why I think she became so famous was because she was an effective foil to Nagwa Fouad's "sex bomb" persona on stage. You have mentioned your dislike of Dina's choice of costume, dancing style, and persona and yet this is the same reasons why she is so famous. Dina is like watching a coquettish school girl with her skirt hiked up too high prancing about and blushing when she does something naughty. Dina's influence is everywhere on the dancers of Cairo, including Tito. Sticking your bum out in a deep hip circle with optional butt wiggle has become a standard move in modern Egyptian style. I've even seen dancers from Lebanon and Syria do it. Like it or not, that move is here to stay! __________________ badde 3eish!!! www.markbalahadia.com

06-03-2008, 08:24 AM	#55 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 444	I would suspect in the natural human there would be characteristics seen in the animal kingdom, as we are not that far from it. And by that if someone is being natural in their performance, it is highly possible that they will display body movements that can be seen by our nearest animal relatives the primates. It could be that we as humans are so messed up with trying to eradicate, hide or modify our natural behaviour, for the want of not appearing to be of the animal kingdom that we have lost sight of what it really is to be natural. We have 'intellects' in our society who watch us, our daily movements and actions, constantly trying to analyse everything about us. These people like their predecessors interpret what they see in their own way and there add their own personal thoughts on the matter. This has been going on since perhaps time immemorial, but is more notable with the Victorian period and there after, Charles Darwin being a notable expert from the time who published works based upon his findings and there understandings, and also Sigmund Freud who became the recognised authority on workings of the mind. Now with these experts and their understandings, it occurs that what might be seen as an undesireable quality in a natural human, can once recognised, be modified or attempts made to eradicate this quality for reasons perhaps based on no more than personal insecurity,or even the social and political flavours of the time. It is perhaps interesting to note, these 'experts' on human behaviour were around at the same time of the British Empire, and there, the British colonial impact on various parts of the world. Because of mankinds apparent need to analyse and define itself,perhaps we have essentially lost what it is to be natural. When we are presented with what is true natural behaviour, we try to interpret it, often into two groups, masculine of feminine, leader or follower, when perhaps in reality it is just the way we are as natural creatures on this planet. From what I have been told of dance, one has the ability to just get lost in it, perhaps getting lost in something, just doing without thinking, we just become natural humans, our natural selves shine through, which of course is analysed instead of enjoyed.

06-03-2008, 06:04 PM	#58 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Dear Khanjar: There were two men, one woke up that morning looked up in the sky and said, the sky is blue. Another guy left his house that evening looked up and said look how black the sky is. One says its black one says its blue. Which one of them is right? I don't have to explain any deeper than this, you and everyone else here are adults and know exactly what I'm saying now and what I have been saying all along. The sky is black, the sky is blue. One thing for sure, it ain't green! Now if you haven't been totally turned off by how wacky this dance community is and decided to just totally go tribal, WELCOME. I'm sure you'll find your dance classes much more fun and far less neurotic!