jenc

[quote=A'isha Azar;75380],
. Also, in the animal kingdom and in the human kingdom, any kind of sticking out of the butt tends to be a submissive, "feminine" position, if you will. It is how other primate males show submission to alpha males, and what other female primates do to show they are ready to have sex. And whether or not we like it, much of our sexual behavior and message system is based on the fact that our DNA is only very fractionally different than that of our nearest primate relatives, and we often use similar signals. Nearly as I can tell, they are universal and not cultural.
/QUOTE]

I don't think that the guy who mooned me from a car window as they overtook me on the way home the other night was being feminine and submissive to me!!!

Aisha Azar

[quote=jenc;75386]


Dear Jen,
Often, men will use what they think of as "feminine" or "gay" gestures as insults. In the army, belittle the recruits, it was common to call them "Girls", or in some other way portray them as female. My husband is a carpenter. In jest, the guys refer to each other as "Punkin" and "Honey". Mooning someone might be a gender neutral insult, though I doubt it, but the posture is feminine in all of nature.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

[quote=jenc;75386]Exactly. Actions and behaviors have to be considered in the context in which they happen and often times culture does dictate the meaning. In Romany culture when a woman lifts her skirt at a man it's not an invitation but the most severe insult. In JAmaica where I am from, when we were kids and a girl wanted to show complete disgust for someone, she would turn around, bend over slightly flip up her skirt to show her butt while at the same time giving it a thrust in the person's direction. Unlike apes, we've developed culture and a re not driven solely by impulse and instinct.

Tarik Sultan

Dear Peoples:

Having seen Tito in real life prior to seeing him onstage and several times there after, I can tell you that Tito doesn't not carry himself any particular way when he dances Oriental as versus when he's doing his stick dance. As is common among many people of African descent Tito has a big butt and a slight sway back, (any sisitah out there who know what I'm talking about?), so with the exception of when he deliberately bends over to be a smart ass, (no pun intended), he isn't sticking it out, it's just there. It's just the black booty thing plain and simple.

With regards to the feminine energy thing, we could argue till the cows come home about exactly what that is, seems we've been doing just that since God invented dirt.. at least on this forum. The energy of Baladi and Sharki is different from the energy of dances where the intent is to show aggression, such as Debkah or in dances based on martial arts. Sharki and Baladi which is its foundation, is based on emotional expression, whether that be joy and celebration, sadness anger, or the enjoyment of being in the moment and in your body. It is an emotional expression through music, it's light hearted, playful, therefore, you can't judge it on the basis of masculine versus feminine. Is cutting up and goofing around masculine, feminine, or gender neutral?

Now we all know that the stereotype is that women are more emotional than men and so if the expression of emotion through the body is what people mean by feminine energy I can understand and respect that. Perhaps this is what people mean when they say a guy is in touch with his feminine side. However, I emphasize that in the context of a man dancing, it is not the same thing as being womanly any more than a man getting in touch with his "feminine" side means that he's acting girly. Once again I think it would be more accurate to use the yin and yang energy dynamic to explain it.

Now as to what energy Tito expresses when he dances, it depends on how he feels in the moment and what type of music he's dancing to. Notice how his energy shifts from more delicate and soft in the beginning of this song to stronger and more assertive as the rhythm gets stronger:


Contrast with this dance:



Regardless of whatever energy is or is not in Oriental dance, whether you want to call it feminine essence or not, it will be what it will be, so getting hung up on the label is pointless. The real issue here is when a man dances it should he present himself as a man or should he adopt an attitude that is contrary to his personality? When you see him, should his energy read masculine or feminine. Should he look like a guy dancing, relaxed and comfortable in his body and emotional expression, or should he look like he is trying to emulate a womanly demeanor? Here's another clip of Tito dancing with Aida Nour. Does he read like a guy dancing, or a guy trying to act womanly? That is the point. As A'isha is not reading this input even if contradictory is appreciated and respected.

Brea

I was referring to raqs baladi. Regarding the comments on primates: as a student of primatology, having spent four years studying the behavior of western lowland gorillas, I frankly disagree with a great deal of those statements as well. Still, I believe I will bow out of this conversation at this point.

__________________
www.breamorgiane.com

Aisha Azar

Dear Brea,
I appreciate you responding, though I wish you had gone into a little bit of detail about your thinking on the subject of males dancing and how colonialism affected them. My feeling is not much because of the social indications that even today stop social classes from mixing too much on a daily basis, unless it is a servant/served kind of relationship. There was the exile of the Ghawazi and other street entertainers who were female at one time, but that did not last long, and it had nothing at all to do with belly dance, which was not on the scene yet. The reason that I asked you to clarify is because people like Khanjar who are new to the dance may be under the impression that it is all the same thing until they get a better education. I think it is necessary to clarify for their sake. Otherwise we get back into the "ancient art of belly dance" thing, and that leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.
If you studied gorillas, you know that among all primates, baboons, gorillas, chimps, etc, as well as many other mammals, this presenting of the hindquarters is a "female" or " male submissive" signal or message that is related to sexual behaviors and domination. Jane Goodall of chimpanzee fame and the other woman who died for the gorillas both discussed sexual behaviors, and this was noted. I can not remember the gorilla woman's name right now. My original plan in life was to be a paleoanthropologist and primate behaviors is one important area of study since we are very closely related. Goodall also discussed in detail the chimp propensity for going to war against other chimp groups, which I found very interesting as it relates to human behavior.

Regards,
A'isha

jenc

IThis is in respomnse to my saying that young men who mooned me were not doing this as a feiminine gesture

[quote=A'isha Azar;75387]My point was not that the gesture was gender neutral but that it was an attempt at male dominance through what you perceive to be a gesture that is feminine by definition end of story.

i felt it to be and they intended it to be masculine domination.

Brea i wish you would elaborate about primates it sounds facinating. how did you get from there to scottish studies.

Moon

LOOOOOL

Aisha Azar

[quote=jenc;75406]IThis is in respomnse to my saying that young men who mooned me were not doing this as a feiminine gesture



Dear Jen,
I am not the only one who perceives it this way. The gesture, throughout primate societies, is seen as female/submissive by those who have studied animals far longer and more intimately than I have. A good place to start to read about it is the work of Whitham and Maestriperi, who, if I remember correctly, wrote specifically about baboons and their greetings and other rituals of baboons. If you want, I can go through my books and papers and give you a list of academic works that discuss presentation of the hindquarters or buttocks as the submissive part of domination/submission in primate relationships. It is also present in other mammal species. I can not remember more at the moment right off the top of my head, but I do have reliable, academic info on it. Despite what some people might think, I do not sit around and make stuff up. I actually do have a pretty good education.
Regards,
A'isha

jenc

i am not saying that it is never submissive, nor even that it is not usually submissive - only that it was threatening and definately in that case a gesture of male supremacy over women!! If i had not been driving at 30 mph through a built up area, actually a small town in rural east anglia and not the sort of place you would have expected this at all, i would have been frightened. I don't see how you can read this as a gesture of submission in this case at all.


In many cases what is being said to you is not a direct contradiction of your position, only an assertion that things are not always black and white, but are sometine more complicated. I am not questioning your education, but i was taught when I did my degree, that academic texts are meant to be criticised, so long as you can back it up.