Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Thanks Tarik, I appreciate the videos you bring to the forum and the intelligent discourse. I'm glad that you and Khanjar are having a discussion, as it's enlightnening for all of us!

BTW, those men were sensual and sexy in their own way...no contrivance, just joy and happiness with dance!
Yasmine

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karena

Or does the emotion look different, expressed in a different way, from within a different culture? Wouldn't it be a bit dull if we all expressed it the same way? Wouldn't MED cease to be interesting as it is different?

English dance doesn't really float my boat either, but I think it is just different rather than devoid of emotion...

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Aisha Azar

Dear Brea,
Can you give me a time line on when men were belly dancing professionally in the Middle East before the western ideals of propriety/ sexuality came into play? Belly dance is roughly a hundred years old and the Middle East had been under colonial rule for hundreds by then.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Dear Brea: You are right, the hang up between men being able to dance socially as versus professionally did not always exist. I think we all know that what they were doing back then was not Sharki as we know it today because that style evolved between the turn of the century and the late 1930's. Furthermore, as can bee seen from your quoted statement above, you merely stated the fact that men danced professionally, NOT THAT THEY BELLY DANCED OR PERFORMED SHARKI.

Never the less, your observations are correct. There was a time when men did torso articulated solo improvisational dances professionally, not just socially. In fact, they still exist. I personally know at least one such person who lives in Luxor and performs at local weddings. There was also a thread not too long ago about a male dancer who lives and works in the working class areas of Cairo.

Therefore, since such entertainers were common prior to the period of the British protectorate, but are now so rare that the few who still survive are under the radar of even most Egyptians, I'd say your observation is correct.

Tarik Sultan

Thank you! That is exactly the point I've tried to make in the past. This dance is sensual and emotional, whether we are talking about the social dance: Baladi, or the professional dance: Sharki. These qualities are the heart and soul of Egyptian dance. Therefore, if you take that away, its not the same thing. Men when they dance are not afraid to express their natural sensuality and emotion, so then likewise, if men begin to perform professionally, they must maintain these qualities. The problem we have with a lot of guys coming into the dance is firstly, the cultural clash. They come from a culture where only women are allowed to be sensual. Men are tough, rugged, unemotional rational. Women are delicate, sensitive, emotional, sexy, sensual. So, not having an in-cultural frame of reference or experience, they approach it with the only perspective they know.

In culture, men are allowed to be sensual and emotional. Perhaps these are the qualities that some people consider feminine energy. I can understand and accept that, but its not the same thing as being womanly. When the men dance, they retain their manliness, and if they are going to find acceptance in the professional arena, especially in the Middle East, they must do so on stage. What prevents their acceptance now is the fear that men crossing the line into what has so far been a female dominated arena, is that they will not project a manly presence and therefore be an embarrassment. This is why they need to see as many talented men who project an image of masculinity that they can identify as possible if it is to change.

Dipali

Dear Tarik, do you think to make the male Belly dancers accepted by the broader audience they should act a bit more manly even if they are not a straight acting Guy? What happens if the dancer is camp as Ru la Chi but an excellent dancer (Talking here only Middle East) . Is it possible to make a name without compromising ones masculinity.

This whole masculinity things confuses me to the hell.. I have met many male in my native land who are more feminine than an average Australian girl . Similarly most of the Asian guys are “softer” or shy compare to vast majority of Westerns males. Does that make Asian male less masculine ? I think the term masculinity in middle East and in Africa is quite complex than what we think or know. Face saving is a big important factor in that region and it can shape the cultural aspect of average lifestyle of male profoundly. And I think
due to the tendency to associate male homosexuality with effeminacy ( a colonial import) most men will be reluctant to go and associate with events that show case a dancer who is effeminate. My personal observations says its not a big cultural issue rather a political one. I could be wrong though.

Regards to all

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khanjar

The concept of masculinity confuses the hell out of you, well I will let you into a little secret, it confuses the hell out of most males who feel they have to conform to a what seems a mythical ideal based upon set stereotypes. I do understand that some males I know are confused by this as they are very caring individuals and to be caring of others thoughts and feelings is not a manly thing.

I feel men in the west are confused, perhaps clueless as to what they should be and so hide behind stereotypes as hiding behind stereotypes is a safe place to exist. Where I have seen what I feel would be an ideal position, is with some members of the homosexual community, not in what their sexual preference is, but the way they project themselves, they are largely comfortable in their own skin, know who and what they are and what they are as human males comes naturally, maybe it is they have found the correct balance.

More so I feel confusion as to what a male should be, is largely an English thing, as even with the Scots, some of them that engage in traditional pastimes, don a kilt, which is essentially a skirt, and wear dainty shoes and there prance about daintily in traditional dance, but no one would call them effeminate for their attire or expression as even with the dance, they project natural masculinity.

I asked a question on another forum, what it means to be a male in western society, the answers I got back from the males indicated a confusion, from the females it was basically for males to be comfortable with themselves, something as I have said, most males struggle with being and there seeing in others of their kind. Perhaps this has always been a struggle for males in the west and because of this, they have for purposes of comfort projected their ideals on everyone else both in other countries and their cultures.

As Tarik mentioned somewhere earlier, the so called metrosexual male is a step in the right direction, I feel this too, and also feel maybe we will become comfortable with ourselves at some point and there place less regard on stereotypes and just be what we are, humans. When this happens, I feel attitudes to the dance will change, males will be comfortable seeing other males dance with emotion and sensuality and not perceive it as a threat. With hope, once again western ideals will rub off on those in the ME as it did in the past.

Aniseteph

This is a very interesting thread. I wonder if some of the issues with males expressing emotions aren't more complex than East/West attitudes. Look at ballroom tango vs. Argentine tango, or flamenco. Some cultures just don't rate males getting their sensitive/passionate sides out.

My 2 cents worth on the colonial thing is that it comes across as a bit simplistic to put any ME Issues with men dancing for money down to adopted colonial attitudes about propriety/effeminacy/homosexuality. I'm not saying it wasn't so, just that this implies to me the native culture is, well, really easily led. There may be many other factors involved, but I'm out of my depth historically so will shut up.

I think you have to focus on the TYPE of dances and the cultural baggage that goes with them. In any culture where there's an active tradition of mixed male and female social dancing there'll be no effeminacy issues about guys dancing, because you'll see your dad and brothers etc all doing it, it's normal. (Oh c£@*, I just saw where this is heading, tries to change direction....). A style that's perceived as a girls thing is another matter.

What do a lot of us have in the West as images of male dancers? Age-specific styles like street-dance, high skill/training performance like ballet, folk-styles that everyday folk don't do any more, and <cringe> dad-dancing at the disco. No wonder some guys feel they need How To Dance and Be Manly rules, however nisguided, when venturing into unfamiliar territory.

Aisha Azar

DEar Anisettph,

Both Khanjar and Dipali discussed the differences between western and eastern concepts of masculinity. In taking business classes, I discovered that whole countries are classified in western business ideas, in terms of "masculine" and "feminine". the whole "manly" thing has different connotations from culture to culture, but for sure, belly dance has never been considered to be "manly" in the Middle East. Other types of dance, such as Saidi, Shaabi, Beledi, Ardah, Debke, Bambouteyeh, etc, yes, but not Raqs el sharghi. I am probably going to sponsor a gentleman from Alexandria for a shaabi workshop sometime in the next few months. He has made it abundantly clear that I must make sure the students understand he is NOT teaching belly dance!! My own experience with the dance has showed me that he is pretty typical, though there may be a few exceptions.

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Dear Dipali:

To answer your question whether male dancers should act more butch even if they are naturally effeminate to get acceptance. Its a tough issue, but the fact is its already happening, not in Oriental Dance, but in other dance forms around the world including Egypt. In the Ballet, no matter how effeminate a guy is off stage, on stage he is encouraged to project a "manly" air. Some of the most GINORMOUS queens I know are Lebanese Debka Dancers or in the Egyptian theater groups. They know that onstage they can't queen out and so they conform. How do I feel about this? Even though I personally don't like to see effeminate dancers, there's another part of me that feels it sucks that people can't just be themselves, but that is the way it is.

You state a very important fact in the equation here. Masculinity, femininity, to a great degree are concepts and concepts are not always universal. My point is that for a lot of people in the West the thought of a man dancing with his hips, ( regardless of whether it is professional or social), is regarded as engaging in feminine behavior. This is why one often reads old traveler's accounts such as Lady Duff Gordon, where they describe men dancing socially as dancing in a female manner, or as in the case of the book DANCING, which also had an accompanying documentary, the author stated that for some odd reason the men in Egypt imitate women when they dance. Its clear from reading other passages in the book that he believes hip movements are feminine.

What he and most people fail to realize, is that what is considered normal and obvious in one culture, is not in another. We live in a world of multiple, not singular realities and so while hip movements may be considered feminine in the West, they are not considered so in many parts of the Middle East, Africa, or paces within the African diaspora. I'm West Indian and have grown up seeing men move their hips all my life and so I've never seen hip movements as being exclusively female. And from what I can see, the same holds true to a great degree in Egypt and other places, although for many reasons there are exceptions.