No hope - Page 9

Tarik Sultan · 06-18-2008, 06:18 AM

This is a public forum and participation is voluntary. No one twisted anyone's arm to write a review and so if the participants were all qualified professionals, and I think they were, then.... it was a good show. Were there technical things that might have gone wrong? Sure. Were there any participants who felt they could have done better.... of course, we always think we could have done better, but that doesn't mean that we should assume that the show wasn't good. Should there be objective reviews, of course. But even if one or two people were off their game does not mean the show was a flop and wasn't entertaining.

Tarik Sultan · 06-18-2008, 06:24 AM

Dear Khanjar:

I totally get where you're coming from about all gendered shows. If it were the case that we only had shows that were all male or all female all the time then that would be an issue, but that's not what we are talking about in this case. This is an occasional thing. And like I've said before, every other dance form has had all male shows. Ballet does it, modern does it, Flamenco does it, Tap does it, Hula does it, Hip-Hop does it. No one has as of yet addressed the issue I asked waaaaaaay back. If all of the other dance forms have done it and think nothing of it, and have suffered no ill consequences, then why is it suddenly a problem when we do it? After all, this has been happening in Europe for OVER 10 YRS by many artists.

Caroline_afifi · 06-18-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,

I am not sure where the rest of the quote went, but I will try to respond to the whole thing.

Quote:

RE punishing men: I am not sure why not wanting an all male show is considered to be punishing them.

Who are we to place restrictions on anyone when it comes to Art?

I am not into placing restrictions on people. I may argue that what they do is not art bust masturbation, and I may never hire them or recommend them but if some other mad person wants to then so be it.

Quote:

To me this kind of thing enforces the already obvious problem of women treating men as if they are more special than women. I have spent my life supporting men in dance at all levels. I have sponsored men to star in 3 of my last 7 shows and teach workshops. I also have had them act and dance in other shows in the last few years, been teaching them and learning from them and working with them and sponsoring them for the last 34 years. I no longer feel good about doing that now that they are excluding women. I will make it a point not to sponsor either men or women who are supporting all male events. Maybe they could care less about my tiny little opinion, but I will not be hypocritical about it. My money is where my mouth is. This is the only power that I have in this situation.

OK and that is your choice and perfectly OK.
The problem is still about re-educating women to not conform to silly stereotypes like some of the example you mentioned.

Quote:

There is a LOT of room between not doing all males shows or having a more egalitarian response to male dancers and having them march off to war. One has little to do with the other. I am not threatened by men dancing either, but I surely would not expect them get applause merely for being men, or to exclude women from dancing in their shows.

It doesnt for me. If I went into the recruitment of the army in relation to what I am saying it would become an essay. There is a connection. Men on the dance floor do not feel the need to join the army and if they want to do all male projects in dance then so be it as long as they know why they are doing it in the same way women must think about it.

Quote:

I think the last point was about the pathology of many women's responses to males belly dancing going beyond screaming and yelling. It manifests in many ways. You pointed out one yourself, where the women in the audience clapped louder for the male than for the females in the show. What message does this send? That somehow, even though he may not be a better dancer, the male is superior to the females on some level, in these womens' minds.

I agree. I have echoed these sentiments many times in these discussions.

Quote:

I have seen women in workshops go out of their way to get attention from the male instructor, where they do not do the same with females. I once saw a woman slide sensuously out of her belt and bend over to pick it up off the floor,all for the benefit of the male instructor. He ate it up rather than responding as if she was out of line.

So what did the other women in the class say to her? they shoulod of told her to get a grip. I believe everyone has a collective responsibility when it comes to behaviour and dealing with it.

Quote:

I have seen men act like total mysogynists and women put up with it,

Perhaps it is the screamers and they enjoy it?

Quote:

One male instructor tried to bully me one time. When I told him to knock it off, the women in the room acted like I was at fault. When he apologized to me after my show, he did THAT in complete privacy where no one could see him do it. This is not a problem that men are creating all by themselves, but they are usually not trying to do anything to stop it either. The all male show is one more way of setting themselves apart from us, and this leads to problems, not solutions. When women act out as if men were so much more important than women it adds to the problem but curing it is not going to happen through excluding us..

Regards,
A'isha[/quote]

It is bad about you being bullied and you were right to challenge it.
The support or lack of it depends on how much the others percieved it in the same way as you. Also students like to ass lick teachers.

Men can set themselves apart as women can as they are different.
What if all their audience was Gay and they just come to scream too?

We cant say as women that we demand to access all area but tell men they cant. Do you really believe that? it seems grossly unfair to me.

PS Khanjar. From a male perspective, why do you feel against male show?
Just curious to get different perspectives on this.

Aisha Azar · 06-18-2008, 01:11 PM

Dear Caroline,

RE the question, "Who are we to place restrictions on anyone when it comes to art?"

It seems to me that this question might have been better asked of those who put restrictions on women appearing on the same stage as them.

Re the problem of educating women not to conform to silly stereotypes.

Aren't you rather placing the blame 100% on females when it is actually a problem of male/female relationships? both men and women buy into the bullshit, not just women. This is an example of how we are trained to think it is "our" fault and "our" responsibility. It takes two to tango.

Re men on the dance floor not feeling the need to tote guns.

Actually I have known a couple men who have done both. One does not negate the other. There are serial killers who love ballet.

Re the woman who slid sensuously out of her belt.

I think most of the class did not witness it or pay attention. I was in the middle of talking to the male about what he wanted to teach next. My response was that they were both consenting adults and could deal with the situation as they pleased. I feel about sexual encounters between two adults just like you do about art. Who am I to be critical about it?

The statement about misogyny:

Not all women who put up with it are screamers. Some just do not know it when they see it, or know what to do in the face of it. Mistreatment of anybody can be so insidious and creep into a whole system. as in women being paid less than men for the same work, etc.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I agree. I have echoed these sentiments many times in these discussions.

Yes, you have and that is partly why your response here confuses me.

Quote:

It is bad about you being bullied and you were right to challenge it.
The support or lack of it depends on how much the others percieved it in the same way as you. Also students like to ass lick teachers.

Or there a a lot of teachers out there who train their students to ass lick. It is a two way street.

Quote:

Men can set themselves apart as women can as they are different.
What if all their audience was Gay and they just come to scream too?

Thus far we have not had to deal with it. I try not to create problems where none exist, but to address the current problems.

Quote:

We cant say as women that we demand to access all area but tell men they cant. Do you really believe that? it seems grossly unfair to me.

You are not talking to one of those women who believes that males and females need equal access to everything in the world. You are also not talking to someone who believes men should banned from dance, are you? So I am not sure what your question is here or what you think I am saying that is "grossly unfair". I have made it abundantly clear that I support male dancers. What I do not support is all male shows. Do you not see the difference?
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-18-2008, 01:50 PM

Dear Caroline:

There's something here you mentioned that I think a lot of people are missing. There were two male dancers in the show, yet only one got that kind of response. Why didn't people treat Shafik that way?

There is a lot more going on here. Another question, would those women have reacted differently if if were a male Hula dancer in a loin cloth, (a totally legitimate costume in their style)? Could it be that Ozgun sent a message that Shafik didn't in the way he presented himself on stage and that these women, because they live in a society which tells them that if you are over a certain age, you are not allowed to be sexual, show sexual interest or be the initiator, use this as an excuse/opportunity to rebel express the fact that they are sexual beings who can take initiative and decide who they want or don't not just be objects who sit passively waiting for someone to show them attention?

I think that there are many things going on here and what I'm reading confirms it. I don't think its so simple as men thinking they are entitled and getting attention they don't deserve.

Tarik Sultan · 06-18-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suheir

Ah, but those Beatlemaniacs, etc, were girls, not middle-aged women who appear never to have seen a man before. I have to wonder what happened to the dignity and self-respect of grown women who bellow like animals at male dancers.

Okay, but you see, I think this is the problem right here. ACT YOUR AGE. Honestly, what positive messages are mature women given about sexuality? You're washed up over the hill dried up. At the exact time when women are reaching their sexual peaks, society is telling them, the game's over for you grandma. I think that mature women who act out like this are really rebelling against this mentality, maybe its even subliminal.

I remember I was hired to do a birthday party for a woman. It was her 50th. The whole time she kept screaming "I'm 50yrs OLD WHHOOOOO!!!" She was acting wild and crazy and all the things we've just described. But when i looked in her eyes, I saw it wasn't genuine. She wasn't excited and thrilled to be 50, she was devastated! Why? Because in our culture if you are a woman, that means game over. Thank god that women are now beginning to challenge this notion, but I fear many women do not know how to do this in a self empowering way because they were never given the tools to do so. So how do they do it? By acting like they were 18 or 20, dressing in styles that are way too young for them, (not that they have to dress in sack cloth, but you know what I mean), drinking too much, burning the candle at both ends, why? Because they are trying in their way to say, "I'm still here, I still got it, I'm still relevant". This I believe is one of the issues at the heart of this situation. The screaming and whatnot is not a thing in and of itself, but a symptom of a deeper state of mind.

For the record, I never could understand why those young girls acted the way they did over Elvis or the Beatles and I see it everywhere. Talent shows where the guys aren't that great, dance shows of all types. I think we have to look deeper as to what is going on in society and the way it treats women and the messages it gives women to cure it. You don't kill a weed by wacking away at leaves, you have to pull out the roots.

khanjar · 06-18-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

PS Khanjar. From a male perspective, why do you feel against male show?
Just curious to get different perspectives on this.

Perhaps it is that I misunderstood what was going on in this thread, but I am not against all male or all female shows if it is an occasional thing. What I am against is a situation where separate gender shows become the norm, or at least appearing that they are becoming the norm. As that to me, is a step backwards in time when we should as humanity, be moving forward.

jenc · 06-18-2008, 02:34 PM

If you want to know I am SOMETIMES TURNING INTO A DIRTY OLD WOMAN. It might have something to do with living with a tired old man!!!. I have found BD as an outlet for the unwanted energy that I have, but I am starting to feel old age at my shoulder, so occassionaly I drool over the young squaddies running past in vest and shorts. I'm not only not going to get any, I'm not even permitted to want to.

khanjar · 06-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Okay, but you see, I think this is the problem right here. ACT YOUR AGE. Honestly, what positive messages are mature women given about sexuality? You're washed up over the hill dried up. At the exact time when women are reaching their sexual peaks, society is telling them, the game's over for you grandma. I think that mature women who act out like this are really rebelling against this mentality, maybe its even subliminal.

I remember I was hired to do a birthday party for a woman. It was her 50th. The whole time she kept screaming "I'm 50yrs OLD WHHOOOOO!!!" She was acting wild and crazy and all the things we've just described. But when i looked in her eyes, I saw it wasn't genuine. She wasn't excited and thrilled to be 50, she was devastated! Why? Because in our culture if you are a woman, that means game over. Thank god that women are now beginning to challenge this notion, but I fear many women do not know how to do this in a self empowering way because they were never given the tools to do so. So how do they do it? By acting like they were 18 or 20, dressing in styles that are way too young for them, (not that they have to dress in sack cloth, but you know what I mean), drinking too much, burning the candle at both ends, why? Because they are trying in their way to say, "I'm still here, I still got it, I'm still relevant". This I believe is one of the issues at the heart of this situation. The screaming and whatnot is not a thing in and of itself, but a symptom of a deeper state of mind.

For the record, I never could understand why those young girls acted the way they did over Elvis or the Beatles and I see it everywhere. Talent shows where the guys aren't that great, dance shows of all types. I think we have to look deeper as to what is going on in society and the way it treats women and the messages it gives women to cure it. You don't kill a weed by wacking away at leaves, you have to pull out the roots.

Yes Tarik, you are I think correct, there is something deeper going for not so young women to act in this way. Perhaps it is the society our present one is built on, a society which created a rot which is self perpetuating and indelible in our modern existence. Like dry rot, one has to find the fruiting body to kill something which causes so much damage.

Here, in my country, though we are a good century away from the Victorian period, much of it's ideals still exist, a Victorian mentality which was in it's time a two faced society, and what have we now, the very same.

khanjar · 06-18-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

If you want to know I am SOMETIMES TURNING INTO A DIRTY OLD WOMAN. It might have something to do with living with a tired old man!!!. I have found BD as an outlet for the unwanted energy that I have, but I am starting to feel old age at my shoulder, so occassionaly I drool over the young squaddies running past in vest and shorts. I'm not only not going to get any, I'm not even permitted to want to.

See, that is what's wrong, you refer to yourself as 'dirty', when in fact you are no dirtier than younger people. Dirty old man, dirty old woman, how often do you hear dirty young woman or dirty young man ? Because ages creep up, it does not mean someone should stop being what they are, a human just like the next human. If you are still feeling the pull, you're not past it.

06-18-2008, 06:18 AM	#81 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	As for Serkan's show This is a public forum and participation is voluntary. No one twisted anyone's arm to write a review and so if the participants were all qualified professionals, and I think they were, then.... it was a good show. Were there technical things that might have gone wrong? Sure. Were there any participants who felt they could have done better.... of course, we always think we could have done better, but that doesn't mean that we should assume that the show wasn't good. Should there be objective reviews, of course. But even if one or two people were off their game does not mean the show was a flop and wasn't entertaining.

06-18-2008, 06:24 AM	#82 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Dear Khanjar: I totally get where you're coming from about all gendered shows. If it were the case that we only had shows that were all male or all female all the time then that would be an issue, but that's not what we are talking about in this case. This is an occasional thing. And like I've said before, every other dance form has had all male shows. Ballet does it, modern does it, Flamenco does it, Tap does it, Hula does it, Hip-Hop does it. No one has as of yet addressed the issue I asked waaaaaaay back. If all of the other dance forms have done it and think nothing of it, and have suffered no ill consequences, then why is it suddenly a problem when we do it? After all, this has been happening in Europe for OVER 10 YRS by many artists.

06-18-2008, 01:50 PM	#85 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Dear Caroline: There's something here you mentioned that I think a lot of people are missing. There were two male dancers in the show, yet only one got that kind of response. Why didn't people treat Shafik that way? There is a lot more going on here. Another question, would those women have reacted differently if if were a male Hula dancer in a loin cloth, (a totally legitimate costume in their style)? Could it be that Ozgun sent a message that Shafik didn't in the way he presented himself on stage and that these women, because they live in a society which tells them that if you are over a certain age, you are not allowed to be sexual, show sexual interest or be the initiator, use this as an excuse/opportunity to rebel express the fact that they are sexual beings who can take initiative and decide who they want or don't not just be objects who sit passively waiting for someone to show them attention? I think that there are many things going on here and what I'm reading confirms it. I don't think its so simple as men thinking they are entitled and getting attention they don't deserve.

06-18-2008, 02:34 PM	#88 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,050	If you want to know I am SOMETIMES TURNING INTO A DIRTY OLD WOMAN. It might have something to do with living with a tired old man!!!. I have found BD as an outlet for the unwanted energy that I have, but I am starting to feel old age at my shoulder, so occassionaly I drool over the young squaddies running past in vest and shorts. I'm not only not going to get any, I'm not even permitted to want to.