Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,


Yes, and this happens rather often, does it not? Men are treated specially just because they are men. Women have done this for eons, not just for belly dance, but for all kinds of things. It is part of the way in which, being physically weaker, we as a species survived, as it helped women assure that we and our babies would be taken care of. The point is, it is not just that women scream for men and act like they are better than women when they are not. It is the whole psychology of the thing that is popping up as a trend in the dance scene.

I am not sure I am following the trend of thought above?? I think it is easy for both men and women to get carried away with their own importance in this and any other entertainment field, including sports, though again, we seem men as MUCH more outstanding and important in that area, too. I hate seeing that carried over into the dance.

I was over in the other part of the forum where everyone was going on and on about what a TOTALLY PERFECT event Serkan sponsored and carried off. If a woman writes such a thing about female show, we often accuse her of glossing things over, that maybe the show was not actually perfect and that we must do honest critiques. No one has said such a thing in this case. It read as false as any other event where dancers go on and on about their own perfection, without looking at the realties of the situation. I heard that it was rather weird at the one in New York recently, though no one will admit that in public. It was all just roses in both places. Now, how often does ANY show come off with all dancers dancing perfectly, everyone doing everything just right, etc? Why should we not critique all male shows with just as much honesty as we would any other show?
I also see where now, as I predicted, there is going to be a rash of such shows as this all male review goes on tour. I remember when I was thought paranoid a couple of weeks ago because it was "just one show". It will be interesting to see how long it takes us to catch on to the fact that men are leaving women out every time they do an all male show.


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It is like I said above, it goes far deeper than just the sreaming and will manifest in many ways.

Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi

mmm... I doubt perfection is always achieved and this is highly subjective. I very rarely see a full show that caters for my taste throughout.
Men do dance differently and can be apprecaited on different levels as women are. I still dont think there are enough men around to worry about a rash of all male shows. If this happens then they may use men who dont quite make the grade so the criticism will come for them too. Not all men are great dancers, but many are.
I would rather see men dancing on a stage than holding a weapon on a battle field. I feel much less threatend by this.

Regards,
A'isha[/quote]

Could you expand a little on the last point?
thanks

khanjar

Dear A'isha

From my OP which you took issue with;

.....Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now......

Use of the words some , perhaps and most does not mean an absolute, nor does it mean it applies to all, and was written as a possible extreme.

As to the ladies here who have reported the fact that they had been likened to whores for their interest, that, I can only speculate and there sympathize, as I have not been here that long nor have I had a great a reading of past postings, perhaps I should before taking issue with what I understand from my daily life is not the case that I have heard.

......Depends on the job. My husband has often had to take up the slack when he works with females because they are not as strong as he is. They could do the job, but not without more help than a man would need. I resent that my husband has to work harder because someone else can not, yet they are paid the same as he is. By the way, he is not a very big man, being 5'8" and weighing in at about a 140 pounds, but he is way stronger than women his size. However, there are female welders on his job that can weld circles around many of the men......

Men like women come in all shapes and sizes and therefore have different physical strengths.I am not of great physical strength in my upper body, as I was a cyclist and have what many call the T-rex physique, so, what jobs I have had, I sought jobs requiring light but skilled dexterity. I was in heavy industry, but I was a surveyor, where I was responsible for the 'dig here' mathematics and then later I repaired the delicate instruments used in aviation and medical fields. It was often I needed help from the stronger, I did not see this as a slight, nor did those that helped me feel themselves superior, we worked as a team, just as I suspect many others do in industry. My weight is also 140 lbs, but I am over six feet in height.Still, if the job in hand is done, it is done and that is all that matters to an employer, team work if it is there, is desireable as this fosters good working relations.

......Balance does not always mean that gender must be equally balanced in numbers. Sometimes this throws things off badly, bringing the wrong energy into the spirit of things. That's one reason why we do not see male/female soccer teams with names like, "The Bouquets", as opposed to names like "The
Falcons". The essence of the sport is about rugged competition, not discussing it until we come to an equitable things where we both can win. The essence of the sport is masculine, even when female teams play it. Humans are the only animals who keep insisting that there are only activities, not male/ female ones. Take a little look into the animal kingdom and you see plenty of gender specific activity.....

We all have our own definitions of balance, to me, it is not numbers being equal, but recognition of each other as being capable, numbers may then be free to rise or fall as is natural.No bar should be put upon either sex that is not biological in nature. The animal kingdom I do observe, as what we are as humans bears much resemblance, except we are in many ways different from animals, we seem able to choose what we do in our lives.

.....I am sorry. I don't understand this response......

My wish for saying what I did was to explain that what is, and has been gender specific, need not carry on as if it is gospel, if there is a wish for change, then change. If some would like to keep things gender specific, then it is possible all things might again become gender specific and with that some of the practices which are best left in the past. I as a male wish not to see a partner as property.


......NO, I said a lot of men want to be treated as if men deserve special treatment. I disagree with that entirely. I have heard men act as if they have such a much harder time being accepted than women do, but they are wrong. The "ideal" belly dancer, according to the social expectation, is a dark haired female beauty with a georgeous figure who swoops around in a veil, with luscious breasts and large dark eyes and a temptress's smile. Well, that is not a male, but it also isn't most dancers that I know, especiallly us older, fatter ones. We can't get work in clubs any more than men can......


I think here there are different levels of acceptance, males are not females and not all females are the mythical ideal. Belly dancer is not a term I think particularly endearing, one has a mental image of a 'belly' on it's own dancing. People are more than that although I understand where the term came from. Like with many things, it can be changed through education, ME or ME style dance is a better description. Perhaps through technology education can be possible in the subject of naming and acceptance.

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,

I am not sure where the rest of the quote went, but I will try to respond to the whole thing.

RE punishing men: I am not sure why not wanting an all male show is considered to be punishing them. To me this kind of thing enforces the already obvious problem of women treating men as if they are more special than women. I have spent my life supporting men in dance at all levels. I have sponsored men to star in 3 of my last 7 shows and teach workshops. I also have had them act and dance in other shows in the last few years, been teaching them and learning from them and working with them and sponsoring them for the last 34 years. I no longer feel good about doing that now that they are excluding women. I will make it a point not to sponsor either men or women who are supporting all male events. Maybe they could care less about my tiny little opinion, but I will not be hypocritical about it. My money is where my mouth is. This is the only power that I have in this situation.


There is a LOT of room between not doing all males shows or having a more egalitarian response to male dancers and having them march off to war. One has little to do with the other. I am not threatened by men dancing either, but I surely would not expect them get applause merely for being men, or to exclude women from dancing in their shows.



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I think the last point was about the pathology of many women's responses to males belly dancing going beyond screaming and yelling. It manifests in many ways. You pointed out one yourself, where the women in the audience clapped louder for the male than for the females in the show. What message does this send? That somehow, even though he may not be a better dancer, the male is superior to the females on some level, in these womens' minds. I have seen women in workshops go out of their way to get attention from the male instructor, where they do not do the same with females. I once saw a woman slide sensuously out of her belt and bend over to pick it up off the floor,all for the benefit of the male instructor. He ate it up rather than responding as if she was out of line. I have seen men act like total mysogynists and women put up with it, both on stage and in class. One male instructor tried to bully me one time. When I told him to knock it off, the women in the room acted like I was at fault. When he apologized to me after my show, he did THAT in complete privacy where no one could see him do it. This is not a problem that men are creating all by themselves, but they are usually not trying to do anything to stop it either. The all male show is one more way of setting themselves apart from us, and this leads to problems, not solutions. When women act out as if men were so much more important than women it adds to the problem but curing it is not going to happen through excluding us..
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

A'isha, I agree with you on that one, all male shows is not the way forward, as is all female shows. Shows yes, but not with female dancers or male dancers, just dancers who might happen to be male or female. Dancers who can be seen on their ability to dance and there entertain others.

What you describe as a woman using her natural abilities to attract a male, is clearly of the animal kingdom, she wanted attention and she got it, thus proving we are really just animals. But though we are animalistic in ways, we have the ability to turn that side off when it is not wanted or needed.

Unless someone is specifically seeking a mate, favour or just playing games, a dance class is not the place for it from either sex.

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

khanjar

Interesting point about the difference between ballet and ME dance and audience reaction.

Ballet has always been what has been considered to be a cultured performance where at one time,only the wealthier patrons could see, and so with this, it fostered a reserved level of applause.

Me style dance has been more of a show that the not so wealthy could see and so different levels of applause were tolerated.

Maybe it is this, coupled with the fact that males who dance in the western world were in the past scarce if not non existent and now as things have changed, males are seen as a novelty.

Novelties as we know attract attention.

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar


And yet, the male female thing is played out in every aspect of our lives, the dance arena included. I was not really offended by that, but I was aware that it was something that both parties bought into. I am off to give you Rep points for so clearly understanding one of my main points as far as us respecting dancers for their ability to dance, not for them being male or female. This is my real problem with all male shows at the base of it all. It is yet another way to single out males and make them special instead of just having them be a dancer like the rest of us.
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

Thank you for your kind comments, I do understand where to me equality should exist, but when I suggested males be given a push so to speak, I was saying this from my point of view as a learner, not a dancer. Once a male is in, then it is up to them to accomplish what they desire, if they desire.

This ATS class I have found so far I have found it consists of twenty women from my college, and a learner who is to go to the next class, my friend who believed she was too old to do something like this.

I can be persistent too, I found out the details and have emailed the 'tribe', my friend is now going and she can't wait to go, perhaps myself next.

I will support her, as she supports me, just things friends do for each other.

(she loved Tarik's videos)

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Farasha Hanem

I wish I had advice to offer you, but sadly, I can't think of anything to say that would help you. All I can do is offer you my empathy, and a big hug. *huggles*

Perhaps, though, you might try doing what I'm doing until our classes start back up. Approach one or more of your classmates you trust or that you have a rapport with, and ask if you can get together to practice in one another's homes. Of course, you might find that to be difficult if you have doubts about asking, but hey, it never hurts to try. In the meantime, there are some wonderful instructional DVD's to kind of help tie you over until your class starts back up in the fall

Tarik Sultan

Nothing out of the ordinary. Mohamed Shahin opened with a Nubian dance and gave a brief description of what it was. Next up Julian, who is not a middle Eastern dancer. He did a middle eastern inspired number that was fun, not spectacular, but entertaining and fun to watch. Next was Mark. It was explained he would open with an Oriental followed by a Lebanese Raks al Assaya. The crowd enjoyed both his dances, his assaya was interesting, looked like a cross of Baladi and Debke. Next was myself. I did three numbers improvised to the band and can't for the life of me remember what the songs were, followed by an unplanned drum solo. Mohamed did a cane dance which was well received and I opened with a Shabbi piece followed by an up beat pop song and I explained what I did after.

No one was over reacting. Each performer was enjoyed for what they did. It was a really good show because everyone was different , but what really made it was the energy of the crowd overall. It was just very warm, friendly and accepting. If anyone felt it was weird.....???? What was weird about it? It was just a group of people who were enjoying each other's company. No one was being fussed over, having their butts kissed or put on a pedestal. No one was treating the women like sex objects or patronizing them. It was just a really fun unpretentious night with good energy where everyone was appreciated. My only regret was that Kaeshi, (who was in drag and totally looked like my friend Nahiko) didn't dance. I love to watch her and so I was disappointed. If anyone feels it was "weird", they should speak honestly and openly about it instead of being vague.