No hope - Page 7

Zorba · 06-17-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

More male dancers required then, the lack of, I see largely as men's fault and their insecurity about their masculinity. To you ladies when you see a male dancer, do you see femininity or masculinity, if it is the latter, please communicate this to males and there might be a change? As for a lot of males, their worst nightmare is for a woman not to see them as masculine and so masculine they must be, any hint of their action being in the slightest, feminine, they avoid. A vicious circle based largely on misunderstanding and misinformation, a failure of communication between the sexes.

Aha! Like me, I see you're giving a lot of thought to the matter - and have come to much the same conclusion. This is, indeed, the root cause of "stupid male tricks" like in my post immediately above.

Aisha Azar · 06-17-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

As this thread is aclled 'no hope' I thought this would fit here.

On Friday night at Raqs B, Ozgen who is a really nice guy and great entertainer performed his piece. Ok, he removed his tight shirt to reveal his bare midriff etc. but the women shrieked and wooped so much through his dance he had to signal to them to shush.

If this happend whilst a woman was dancing for an audience of men, everyone would be having a real go at the men and calling them for everything. Some women need to get a serious grip of themselves and stop whining about the behaviour of men whilst imitating them at their worst.

Dear Caroline,
And this is one of the main problems that I have pointed out about all male shows, though I have been hissed and booed and told it would not happen like that at an all male show. Wanna Bet? Many women never get past the idea that there is a man dancing, and they are not even capable of having any insight into the quality of the dance being presented. They are too hung up on that it is a man dancing. It makes it difficult to judge in review whether the poor man was any good or not, unless you are there to see for yourself.
Many people say this issue will disappear in an all male show, but my feeling is that it will be just as prevalent, but people will be reluctant to admit it for fear of being politically incorrect. The problem will not disappear just because everyone on stage is a male. It will be compounded.
The room for abuse in such a situation is enhanced. Males being treated like meat or like stars when they are really just average dancers is magnified. The chance for males to treat women like only students and acolytes instead of colleagues is also magnified. This is a two way street.
Now, anyone who wants to tear into me for saying so, go for it. As more and more shows go on without females, maybe you will begin to get the picture.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-17-2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,
And this is one of the main problems that I have pointed out about all male shows, though I have been hissed and booed and told it would not happen like that at an all male show. Wanna Bet? Many women never get past the idea that there is a man dancing, and they are not even capable of having any insight into the quality of the dance being presented. They are too hung up on that it is a man dancing. It makes it difficult to judge in review whether the poor man was any good or not, unless you are there to see for yourself.
Many people say this issue will disappear in an all male show, but my feeling is that it will be just as prevalent, but people will be reluctant to admit it for fear of being politically incorrect. The problem will not disappear just because everyone on stage is a male. It will be compounded.
The room for abuse in such a situation is enhanced. Males being treated like meat or like stars when they are really just average dancers is magnified. The chance for males to treat women like only students and acolytes instead of colleagues is also magnified. This is a two way street.
Now, anyone who wants to tear into me for saying so, go for it. As more and more shows go on without females, maybe you will begin to get the picture.
Regards,
A'isha

For the forum:

Ahhh, yeah, but this was a mixed gendered show. Ozgun and Shafik were the only guys in the show. ...... I know, lets just ban male dancers altogether. Then we won't have to worry about people making a fuss over them when they are only mediocre or have to put up with them trying to put women in inferior positions. Honestly, there is more going on here when it comes to the over exaggerated reactions of women. If you watch footage of the Merrie Monarch Hula Festival in Hawaii, the women always react the exact same way to the men. So instead of feeling threatened can we simply figure out exactly what is going on here? Could it be that the reaction is so exaggerated because women are so often overlooked when it comes to performances that cater to their aesthetic? I did a job on Mother's Day and was told that they had no idea such a thing as a male Oriental Dancer existed. They wanted something a bit sensual for the ladies, but had no other options than a stripper. When he asked whether they wanted him to come out erect or non erect they started looking for other options and that's when they stumbled across me. I think this speaks volumes and may have something to do with the types of reactions we've discussed before. LEts' try not to throw the baby out with the bath water shall we.

khanjar · 06-17-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Aha! Like me, I see you're giving a lot of thought to the matter - and have come to much the same conclusion. This is, indeed, the root cause of "stupid male tricks" like in my post immediately above.

What is particularly sad about all of this, is that we now live in a technological age with massive advances in personal communication, the internet, being IMO a massive forum for the common man to speak their personal thoughts. So this being so, we should be able to get this age old stupidity under control, if we can't, then what is the point in all this technology, makes it kind of useless. If technology can advance to serve us, then we as humans should advance in our thought and actions.

And how about a radical thought on the subject of creating more male dancers, women, I feel they are the solution. If women were to speak to their partners and friends who are male. Tell them it is ok for men to dance , it does not affect their masculinity and women want to see more males involved in the art they themselves love, as an art, not a titillation, maybe some things will change.

To some men this, will come as a reassurance, confirmation that they are human too and as a human they are permitted to express themselves in truth not ideals.

Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now.

Tarik Sultan · 06-17-2008, 05:30 PM

I guess all those bobby sockers back in the 40's were too busy screaming to notice that Frank Sinatra sucked a big one.

I guess if these girls would have shut up for a minute they would have seen that Elvis wasn't all that.

I guess the Beatles were only mediocre talents at best. Besides they stole Twist and Shout from the Eisley Brothers

Honestly folks. Sarcasm aside. As we can see, there's a long history of women flipping out over men. IS there anyone who can remember of a female singer driving crowds of people into a frenzy like this? There is something going on here when it comes to female sexuality and to blame it on Male dancers is to put the blame where it doesn't belong and miss the point. What is really going on with female sexuality in our culture that causes them to react in such a violent manner? Could it be because women have to be so guarded about showing their sexuality lest they be branded as sluts that under circumstances like this they blow their stacks? Could it be an expression of pent up frustration, anger, diffiance, (sp?) at societies hypocrisy and trying to control the expression of female sexuality?

Suheir · 06-17-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

As we can see, there's a long history of women flipping out over men.

Ah, but those Beatlemaniacs, etc, were girls, not middle-aged women who appear never to have seen a man before. I have to wonder what happened to the dignity and self-respect of grown women who bellow like animals at male dancers.

Aisha Azar · 06-17-2008, 07:00 PM

Der Khanjar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

What is particularly sad about all of this, is that we now live in a technological age with massive advances in personal communication, the internet, being IMO a massive forum for the common man to speak their personal thoughts. So this being so, we should be able to get this age old stupidity under control, if we can't, then what is the point in all this technology, makes it kind of useless. If technology can advance to serve us, then we as humans should advance in our thought and actions.

Well........ the dance is a whole nother thing than technology.......

Quote:

And how about a radical thought on the subject of creating more male dancers, women, I feel they are the solution. If women were to speak to their partners and friends who are male. Tell them it is ok for men to dance , it does not affect their masculinity and women want to see more males involved in the art they themselves love, as an art, not a titillation, maybe some things will change.

I think we can let men make up their own minds, and men have been dancing this dance for a long, long time and things have not changed. I think that most men get the message that it is not okay to dance from other men and from themselves, not so much from women. Most of the women that I know in dance are up for being egalitarian about treating men and women alike as far as them dancing. What I do not like is that many people are beginning to treat men as if they are somehow more special than women in dance, and they are not. They are not even that rare, for goodness sakes!! They are everywhere.

Quote:

To some men this, will come as a reassurance, confirmation that they are human too and as a human they are permitted to express themselves in truth not ideals.

And why should males get that kind of approval any more than women do when they dance? You should hear some of the stories of things that women have had to deal with to dance, even on this forum. They get no reassurance, no confirmation except from us and no kind of acceptance, told they are whores, etc, because they want to dance. Should men somehow be above all this and exempt from it? The truth is that women often go through the same kind of gamut in order to dance. Some men seem to want special dispensation because they are men.

Quote:

Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now.

There are plenty of men out there, both in and out of the dance that are secure in their masculinity, do not want to change, have a strong love of themselves etc, who are darn nice guys and do not act like cavemen at all. In fact they are secure enough to admit that it is okay to be a dancer and that it is okay not to be one as well. They are not concerned about what other men are doing. My husband is all male, he is a carpenter, he swears like a sailor's parrot, takes out the garbage, makes love like there is no tomorrow, fixes the cars, does all the guy stuff..... and he is the kindest man I know. His relationship with me has so far lasted 36 years, yet he would far rather hang out with the guys than with a group of women any day. This does not make him a caveman. It makes him a man who has his own set of interests that don't happen to include learning to belly dance. He is an incredibly Zen, live and let live kind of person and I wish there were nor like him out there. In fact, I wish I were more like him, but, I am who I am and he loves me.

Regards,
A'isha

khanjar · 06-17-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Der Khanjar.

There are plenty of men out there, both in and out of the dance that are secure in their masculinity, do not want to change, have a strong love of themselves etc, who are darn nice guys and do not act like cavemen at all. In fact they are secure enough to admit that it is okay to be a dancer and that it is okay not to be one as well. They are not concerned about what other men are doing. My husband is all male, he is a carpenter, he swears like a sailor's parrot, takes out the garbage, makes love like there is no tomorrow, fixes the cars, does all the guy stuff..... and he is the kindest man I know. His relationship with me has so far lasted 36 years, yet he would far rather hang out with the guys than with a group of women any day. This does not make him a caveman. It makes him a man who has his own set of interests that don't happen to include learning to belly dance. He is an incredibly Zen, live and let live kind of person and I wish there were nor like him out there. In fact, I wish I were more like him, but, I am who I am and he loves me.

Regards,
A'isha

I think A'isha you have misunderstood what I was trying to say here. I have quoted an extreme, as I have known extremes, as I have met extremes of the female sex too. Possibly minorities, but they are what they are and though I tend not to agree with their actions, they are entitled to their own belief.

I have never heard of a woman being referred to as a whore if they express an interest in dancing, not in the Western world at least and I am in what I wrote thinking about how things apply to us in the Western World. The ME world is different, at least in some places, but I live in the west, so my thoughts are of the west.

I don't know whether it comes across or not, but I believe wholeheartedly in equality of the sexes, in all things aside from the obvious biological differences and then some of the past set roles can be challenged, childcare for example, that to me is the role of both parents, not one.

Employment, well the belief is, a person's gender is irrelevant, as long as they can do the job who cares.

But because certain activities have shifted in one gender's direction, I think help is needed to achieve a balance, be it heavy industry or dance. If people wish to see a balance, then they could be instrumental in achieving that balance.

If one would like to keep things as they are, or indeed revert back to what they might have been, then to accept that, one must accept all as one cannot pick and choose as all that creates is confusion.

An interesting programme was on the TV this morning, about the women in Dubai, it was said on this programme that the UAE has the highest number of female MP's than any other Islamic country, that I found excellent and welcome it's happening. Not only that, but there women can do many of the traditional male activities, motor racing for example. The women there do the things they do and observe certain social codes and it appears to work. Now, it might be wealth that is propelling this, but it is a change and can only be good for the future, not just of that country, but the rest of the ME and beyond.

Technology has nothing to do with dance, well to that I have to disagree, as without this technology communication with other dancers would be pretty difficult beyond the local enviroment and then only when one meets another. Technology is here, and it is here to serve us and we should use it to advantage, as it is with media reporting in some of the more obscure parts of the world, issues of interest perhaps, brought to attention of the watching world. Often the world aware leads to change. Change might also lead to a new set of problems, but it is progress and progression should not be dismissed.

You say that you feel men need special treatment because they are men, well, not really, but if someone needed help,man or woman, then I would give it, that is just me, but only as far as is necessary, special treatment beyond, no, not that, a person then has their own two feet to stand on and will only realise their potential by doing things on their own two feet.

Male dancers are everywhere, well I could not say on this, not where I live anyway, although I do know of one in my city who is currently male, a true hermaphrodite who is moving more towards the gender of choice.

Caroline_afifi · 06-17-2008, 09:15 PM

I dont think by removing men we remove the problem. Yes, girls scream at rockstars etc. and I have never understood this, but like Suheir said... Grown women!!

Enjoy it? yes, admire the body... yes thats ok, admire the dance? if it is good, but scream??? AAAHHHHH I just did.

It is not the fault of men and it is a learned behaviour from women, but learned from who and why?

I did see one male student at a festival and he was clearly in it for adoration I am sure. He jumped on the stage at every available opportunity and screamed adore me and would have recieved no attention doing the same had he been a woman.

It is perhaps easier for men to have their ego massaged in this scene but there are also great weights stacked against them in other areas.
We should respect people who respect the art and this goes for men and women. Leave the rest to masturbate without a screaming audience... mmm perhaps that is what it is... a faked orgasm!!!

I still believe an all male show would be the test of this. Would women really scream all the way through?? I cant believe this. It is easy when it is just one or two on an a female dominated programme. Has anyone seen any to tell us??

By the way, no one screamed or whooped at Shafeek but they did become more animated in their clapping etc.

Aisha Azar · 06-17-2008, 09:18 PM

Dear Khanjar,
There may be some snippage for length in this response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

I think A'isha you have misunderstood what I was trying to say here. I have quoted an extreme, as I have known extremes, as I have met extremes of the female sex too. Possibly minorities, but they are what they are and though I tend not to agree with their actions, they are entitled to their own belief.

Okay, but you reported it as it were every day life going by.

Quote:

I have never heard of a woman being referred to as a whore if they express an interest in dancing, not in the Western world at least and I am in what I wrote thinking about how things apply to us in the Western World. The ME world is different, at least in some places, but I live in the west, so my thoughts are of the west.

Really? Well right on this forum I have heard women say that they have been discouraged from dancing because the dance is nasty, or too sexy or that whores only dance like that. They are western women who have talked about this.

Quote:

I don't know whether it comes across or not, but I believe wholeheartedly in equality of the sexes, in all things aside from the obvious biological differences and then some of the past set roles can be challenged, childcare for example, that to me is the role of both parents, not one.

I believe that the sexes should be socially equal, entitled to the same rights, etc, but there are still things that men do better and women do better. Belly dance does not happen to be of them, but it is a feminine essenced dance, regardless. Men usually have more upper body strength than women, women are usually more grounded in their pelvises than their chests. This does not make one sex better than they other. This makes them physically fit for different types of work. It means they are different. This does not translate into one being superior, though each may be better at different things than the other.

Quote:

Employment, well the belief is, a person's gender is irrelevant, as long as they can do the job who cares.

Depends on the job. My husband has often had to take up the slack when he works with females because they are not as strong as he is. They could do the job, but not without more help than a man would need. I resent that my husband has to work harder because someone else can not, yet they are paid the same as he is. By the way, he is not a very big man, being 5'8" and weighing in at about a 140 pounds, but he is way stronger than women his size. However, there are female welders on his job that can weld circles around many of the men.

Quote:

But because certain activities have shifted in one gender's direction, I think help is needed to achieve a balance, be it heavy industry or dance. If people wish to see a balance, then they could be instrumental in achieving that balance.

Balance does not always mean that gender must be equally balanced in numbers. Sometimes this throws things off badly, bringing the wrong energy into the spirit of things. That's one reason why we do not see male/female soccer teams with names like, "The Bouquets", as opposed to names like "The
Falcons". The essence of the sport is about rugged competition, not discussing it until we come to an equitable things where we both can win. The essence of the sport is masculine, even when female teams play it. Humans are the only animals who keep insisting that there are only activities, not male/ female ones. Take a little look into the animal kingdom and you see plenty of gender specific activity.

Quote:

If one would like to keep things as they are, or indeed revert back to what they might have been, then to accept that, one must accept all as one cannot pick and choose as all that creates is confusion.

I am sorry. I don't understand this response.

Quote:

An interesting programme was on the TV this morning, about the women in Dubai, it was said on this programme that the UAE has the highest number of female MP's than any other Islamic country, that I found excellent and welcome it's happening. Not only that, but there women can do many of the traditional male activities, motor racing for example. The women there do the things they do and observe certain social codes and it appears to work. Now, it might be wealth that is propelling this, but it is a change and can only be good for the future, not just of that country, but the rest of the ME and beyond.

Often it is not about being able to physically do the work or not do it. Often it is about having an innate understanding of what the work is. In the case of dance, yes, many men get that they can physically do it, but they leave behind the essence of the dance so completely that they may as well be doing some other activity, because what they are doing is not recognizable as belly dance on any other level. Of course, this can be said of many women as well. The dance is more, much more than a set of physical movements, Leaving its soul behind is indeed leaving the dance behind.

Quote:

Technology has nothing to do with dance, well to that I have to disagree, as without this technology communication with other dancers would be pretty difficult beyond the local enviroment and then only when one meets another. Technology is here, and it is here to serve us and we should use it to advantage, as it is with media reporting in some of the more obscure parts of the world, issues of interest perhaps, brought to attention of the watching world. Often the world aware leads to change. Change might also lead to a new set of problems, but it is progress and progression should not be dismissed.

The dance itself has nothing to do with technology and has been around for much longer than technology has. Spreading the news about the dance is not the dance.

Quote:

You say that you feel men need special treatment because they are men,

NO, I said a lot of men want to be treated as if men deserve special treatment. I disagree with that entirely. I have heard men act as if they have such a much harder time being accepted than women do, but they are wrong. The "ideal" belly dancer, according to the social expectation, is a dark haired female beauty with a georgeous figure who swoops around in a veil, with luscious breasts and large dark eyes and a temptress's smile. Well, that is not a male, but it also isn't most dancers that I know, especiallly us older, fatter ones. We can't get work in clubs any more than men can.

Quote:

well, not really, but if someone needed help,man or woman, then I would give it, that is just me, but only as far as is necessary, special treatment beyond, no, not that, a person then has their own two feet to stand on and will only realise their potential by doing things on their own two feet.

I agree with this.
Regards,
A'isha

06-17-2008, 05:30 PM	#65 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Overreactions I guess all those bobby sockers back in the 40's were too busy screaming to notice that Frank Sinatra sucked a big one. I guess if these girls would have shut up for a minute they would have seen that Elvis wasn't all that. I guess the Beatles were only mediocre talents at best. Besides they stole Twist and Shout from the Eisley Brothers Honestly folks. Sarcasm aside. As we can see, there's a long history of women flipping out over men. IS there anyone who can remember of a female singer driving crowds of people into a frenzy like this? There is something going on here when it comes to female sexuality and to blame it on Male dancers is to put the blame where it doesn't belong and miss the point. What is really going on with female sexuality in our culture that causes them to react in such a violent manner? Could it be because women have to be so guarded about showing their sexuality lest they be branded as sluts that under circumstances like this they blow their stacks? Could it be an expression of pent up frustration, anger, diffiance, (sp?) at societies hypocrisy and trying to control the expression of female sexuality?

06-17-2008, 09:15 PM	#69 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,367	I dont think by removing men we remove the problem. Yes, girls scream at rockstars etc. and I have never understood this, but like Suheir said... Grown women!! Enjoy it? yes, admire the body... yes thats ok, admire the dance? if it is good, but scream??? AAAHHHHH I just did. It is not the fault of men and it is a learned behaviour from women, but learned from who and why? I did see one male student at a festival and he was clearly in it for adoration I am sure. He jumped on the stage at every available opportunity and screamed adore me and would have recieved no attention doing the same had he been a woman. It is perhaps easier for men to have their ego massaged in this scene but there are also great weights stacked against them in other areas. We should respect people who respect the art and this goes for men and women. Leave the rest to masturbate without a screaming audience... mmm perhaps that is what it is... a faked orgasm!!! I still believe an all male show would be the test of this. Would women really scream all the way through?? I cant believe this. It is easy when it is just one or two on an a female dominated programme. Has anyone seen any to tell us?? By the way, no one screamed or whooped at Shafeek but they did become more animated in their clapping etc.