No hope - Page 13

Caroline_afifi · 06-22-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,
Actually, I can name Ardeh where guns and swords are used and the original purpose was to get men revved up to fight, certain Debkes were the same, and some of the dances of the Algerians and Moroccans of which I do not know the names, if they have any, that are Middle Eastern and are war dances. Egyptian men with sticks doing hip drops was definitely about fighting, if you remember correctly. In historical context, the men doing those dances were war mongers, and many still are. You know enough about Middle Eastern dance to know its true.
And if we are talking about belly dance in particular, I have not seen so many men involved in belly dance acting particularly peaceful when challenged in recent days. I have even seen women get pretty physically unfriendly, for example in that one video of Fifi ABdou, where she pushes some poor guy out of her way. The world of dance can be just as violent as war, and that goes for many different kinds of dance. Read Gelsey Kirkland's book if you want to read about the lovely world of ballet. Dance is not all peace and light, and men do not behave as saints just because they dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Yes, I was reffering to Belly Dance in particular.
Not all the people who do belly dance are 'nice' people and some may see at as an exuse to be bigger or better than the next. I had a fight scene in the play I wrote and it was based on a real fight I witnessed between two well known Egyptian dancers. I wonder how many men have actually come to blows in the male BD dance scene?
Violence is not a male only pursuit, but you know what I mean about generally the type of men who are drawn to the MED scene. I cant see it being your avaerage Sergant Major or local football hooligan. Again anyone correct me if I am living in La La land.

Aisha Azar · 06-22-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Yes, I was reffering to Belly Dance in particular.
Not all the people who do belly dance are 'nice' people and some may see at as an exuse to be bigger or better than the next. I had a fight scene in the play I wrote and it was based on a real fight I witnessed between two well known Egyptian dancers. I wonder how many men have actually come to blows in the male BD dance scene?
Violence is not a male only pursuit, but you know what I mean about generally the type of men who are drawn to the MED scene. I cant see it being your avaerage Sergant Major or local football hooligan. Again anyone correct me if I am living in La La land.

Dear Caroline,
Yeah, I have seen a couple of female dancers come to blows as well. I can name two guys in belly dance who were in the military. Len Rauch is now dead but his wife's son Ryan, may still be dancing for all I know.
Generally it has been men who go to war to fight, though throughout history there have been some few women, and certainly many women in the entourages that used to accompany them every war. I have known women and men in the military who would never dream of being as nasty as some of the people in belly dance.
As for the average male belly dancer being peaceful and nice and all that, you can not prove that by my recent experiences with them. They have been rude, called names, attacked my character, twisted my meanings on purpose, decided I was a "man hater", etc. and not ONCE have any of them even tried to think anything about this through. They have done nothing but verbally attack me and my point of view. I am not so impressed with any of the women who have tried to psychoanalyze me without knowing me, either. This never was about ME, but suddenly it became exactly that instead of people having a civilized conversation about the actual issue. Violence is violence, whether verbal or physical.
I note that the men and women who are supporting this can hear a man say "This is not about gender", without looking at the fact that it was men who made it about gender in the first place, by having an all male show. Why is that ignored in this conversation? I pointed out that it was indeed about gender from the beginning, and I took issue with that then and still do.
I come from a military family and have not known that many of the people in the service to be violent out of context. In fact, I would say they are usually less so than many of those who have never seen the suffering that war causes.
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi · 06-22-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,
Yeah, I have seen a couple of female dancers come to blows as well. I can name two guys in belly dance who were in the military. Len Rauch is now dead but his wife's son Ryan, may still be dancing for all I know.
Generally it has been men who go to war to fight, though throughout history there have been some few women, and certainly many women in the entourages that used to accompany them every war. I have known women and men in the military who would never dream of being as nasty as some of the people in belly dance.
As for the average male belly dancer being peaceful and nice and all that, you can not prove that by my recent experiences with them. They have been rude, called names, attacked my character, twisted my meanings on purpose, decided I was a "man hater", etc. and not ONCE have any of them even tried to think anything about this through. They have done nothing but verbally attack me and my point of view. I am not so impressed with any of the women who have tried to psychoanalyze me without knowing me, either. This never was about ME, but suddenly it became exactly that instead of people having a civilized conversation about the actual issue. Violence is violence, whether verbal or physical.
I note that the men and women who are supporting this can hear a man say "This is not about gender", without looking at the fact that it was men who made it about gender in the first place, by having an all male show. Why is that ignored in this conversation? I pointed out that it was indeed about gender from the beginning, and I took issue with that then and still do.
I come from a military family and have not known that many of the people in the service to be violent out of context. In fact, I would say they are usually less so than many of those who have never seen the suffering that war causes.
Regards,
A'isha

I aplogise if I am one of those people whom have tried to psychoanalyze you.
I think we have different experiences due to where we live and the differences in the scene etc.
Male dance in the UK is very new. We have had visiting male performers for a couple of decades but not resident performers with any sort of profile til now.
The male dancers I have met have not appeared competative or aggressive but I now understand from many that this is not the full picture worldwide.
It is a very complex area and some people have expressed that there are silly/stupid people everywhere and it is not gender specific.
I felt that the discussion became so heated because everyone concerned felt under attack in some way, and this caused hurt and upset to the individual.

Many interesting points were made from both sides but everyones point of view and experience was different from each others.
I hope everyone has had time to put the discussion into perspective even if there was no real answer.
People will do whatever they believe in, and not what anyone else believes and that is just the way it goes.
Group hug

Aisha Azar · 06-22-2008, 10:31 PM

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I aplogise if I am one of those people whom have tried to psychoanalyze you.

No need for an apology. I just think it would be nice if people quit referring to me as a maladjusted person who obviously is afraid, angry, narrow minded, inflexible, or whatever adjectives they can come up with that are derogatory, just because I do not think that all male shows are very healthy for the dance, nor believe every version of a situation that is clearly slanted in a specific direction.

I

Quote:

think we have different experiences due to where we live and the differences in the scene etcMale dance in the UK is very new. We have had visiting male performers for a couple of decades but not resident performers with any sort of profile til now.

In spite of rumors to the contrary, male dancers have been a staple in United States for decades. Many were around certainly before I started dancing. Some of the more famous ones I can name are Aziz, Bobby Farrah, Burt Baladine, Horatcio who now lives in Germany, Alfredo, John Compton, Kasim and Michael from Oregon, Francisco from Texas, Rashid who danced with Jamila.... and these are just the ones I can think of of the top of my head, never mind how many more I could name if I named unknowns and looked up other famous male dancers. And regardless, even if male dancers are new to UK, how does that justify an all male performance?

When I was coaching Aziz, he once said something to me that is worth repeating here. He told me that he felt being a man was a definite advantage in this business and that he got a lot of work specifically because he was a man. I thought he was such a good dancer that I did not agree, but I think in retrospect, from what I have seen and heard since, that this is true. I get really annoyed when some guy starts telling a sob story around his dance experiences because I have since seen the truth of it, and learned that Aziz was correct. Men often get work even when there are women who are better dancers and better teachers.

Quote:

The male dancers I have met have not appeared competative or aggressive but I now understand from many that this is not the full picture worldwide.

Try not agreeing with some of then outright and see what happens.As I said, I have only had some of the men on this forum be rude and ugly. Until recently, I never had a problem at all.

Quote:

It is a very complex area and some people have expressed that there are silly/stupid people everywhere and it is not gender specific.
I felt that the discussion became so heated because everyone concerned felt under attack in some way, and this caused hurt and upset to the individual.

I want to make it clear that male dancers have always been really nice to me and that I have had great relationships with them for many years, until this forum. I have never had any problems with male dancers and thought that I made it abundantly clear that I have supported males in this dance for a very long time. That seems to have been easily overlooked as some people prefer to see me as a man hater than to look clearly at what I was saying. I did after constant provocation and character bashing, let Tarik know what I thought of him on a personal level. I also referred to the idea of the all male show as sexist and I stand by both actions. We have cows over women not letting men into their classes, but support men who have all male shows? It seems a double standard to me.

Quote:

Many interesting points were made from both sides but everyones point of view and experience was different from each others.
I hope everyone has had time to put the discussion into perspective even if there was no real answer.
People will do whatever they believe in, and not what anyone else believes and that is just the way it goes.

The truth is more like a lot of people will do whatever they are told to do and often have no beliefs of their own except based on what will be of benefit to them. At least no one can accuse me of that since I am not so stupid as to assume that being politically incorrect is good for my popularity!! (LOL)

Quote:

Group hug

Sorry, but there are people involved in this that I would not give a passing hostile nod to from across a crowded room, never mind actually let then touch me. In your case, I make an exception and will gladly give you a hug because I think that at least you have tried , whether or not we agree in the end.

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-23-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I aplogise if I am one of those people whom have tried to psychoanalyze you.
I think we have different experiences due to where we live and the differences in the scene etc.
Male dance in the UK is very new. We have had visiting male performers for a couple of decades but not resident performers with any sort of profile til now.
The male dancers I have met have not appeared competative or aggressive but I now understand from many that this is not the full picture worldwide.
It is a very complex area and some people have expressed that there are silly/stupid people everywhere and it is not gender specific.
I felt that the discussion became so heated because everyone concerned felt under attack in some way, and this caused hurt and upset to the individual.

Many interesting points were made from both sides but everyones point of view and experience was different from each others.
I hope everyone has had time to put the discussion into perspective even if there was no real answer.
People will do whatever they believe in, and not what anyone else believes and that is just the way it goes.
Group hug

As you know from subsequent discussions we have had, I look at an issue from many angles not just one. I even acknowledged that you had a point when it came to your reservations on the issue of all male shows. The thing is there are many ways of looking at an issue, not just one. In certain situations I can see how it could be a bad thing and I myself expressed in what ways it could be and that I would not want to participate in something if it were indeed coming from such a place.

What I had a problem with is the insistence that this event or others like it IS coming from a bad place. It depends on the intent of the person organizing it. Rather than make a blanket statement it would have been better if people simply asked Serkan what his motivation was instead of telling him what it was.

As for my meltdown with A'isha, it came as a result of YEARS of miscommunications. I have done everything that I can think of to show good faith, which is why my posts are often so damn long. It was built up frustration with what seemed like deliberate attempts to NOT understand. Even when I repeatedly stated on many issues that she was right, I believed her, she wasn't wrong, not making things up, she seems to refused to see it simply because I said that there is another way of looking at it, more than one opinion. It is possible that two people will have differing opinions yet both of them are 100% correct. This issue is one of those situations. I though the way the opinion was stated was mean spirited and antagonistic to someone who had no ax to grind with anyone. If she were able to say "this is the way it seems to me, but I can understand that you don't mean it that way", I'd have been fine. But that's not the way it was put across. So you know, after years of having unfruitful communications and constantly being taken out of context my F it 40's gene kicked in. There is only one person on this list that I have ever been sarcastic or rude to and it has always been the result of frustration. It's all there in black and white for anyone to analyze, (but I would hope they would have better things to do). I just didn't see the point in continuing a relationship bound for nowhere. So no group hug necessary here because with the exception of A'isha, I've never had a problem communicating with anyone. Zorba and I do not agree on a few issues for instance. In putting everything out there to her I've released the energy of feeling the need to be understood when it is obvious that it's not going to happen, not just with her, but anyone, so at least, I've learned a lesson. So if A'isha wouldn't spit in my direction, you know what? So be it. It's more sanitary that way anyway.

Caroline_afifi · 06-23-2008, 10:11 AM

Ok a groups hugs out then!

Not usually my style anyway.

I agree with you all and I could see what was going on and all the mis-communication and it is very FRUSTRATING when that happens.

I agree about the motivations point and I dont think there were sinister motivations behind male shows at all and I gather from these posts that 99% dont.

I do agree with A'isha about many of her points and concerns and see where they come from, they just dont lead me to the ultimate conclusion in the same way.

Like I said, this is a forum and we do learn alot from being here about others perspectives.
From an ideal point of view, I would prefer it to be less hurtful towards all concerned. Sometimes hurt is unavoidable as there is a big difference between some being hurt because someone does not agree with what you are saying and someone being hurt because someone has attacked them or their character.
I have said things in other posts which have upset people. I ignored it because I have the freedom to say.. I dislike...for example.. Shamadan and think it looks like a caged contraption perched on someones head.
If people want to have a pop at me and accuse me of personal crimes because of that, then it is really their problem and it is their fragile ego that needs to be looked at.
People take others dislikes so personally and want to change their piont of view and sometimes through discussion minds can change, mine frequently do, but sometimes they dont and wont no matter how hard you try.

Sweeping generalisations do make people feel under attack and so does not being heard. It all happend here and it spiralled into murky water.

We all need to learn from this and avoid mud slinging were possible. Like I said before, there are some people who are just waiting for this to happen.
Just look at the amount of hits a thread gets when it turns into a mud wresting match!

Aisha Azar · 06-23-2008, 02:05 PM

Dear Caroline,
Snippage because there are only a couple of points that I want to address here, that I feel people might not be clear about.

Quote:

I agree with you all and I could see what was going on and all the mis-communication and it is very FRUSTRATING when that happens.

Miscommunication is one thing; verbal abuse is another.

Quote:

I agree about the motivations point and I dont think there were sinister motivations behind male shows at all and I gather from these posts that 99% dont.

Hold the phone: I do not believe that the producers of all male shows have sinister motivations any more than I believe the BDSS thought purposely to encourage so many dancers to think its okay to turn belly dance into cotton candy or put it on stilts or in kilts. I don't think the Tribal people envisioned that some day dancers would be running around with barbs in their backs or dressing up like dracula and calling what they perform "Tribal bellydance". The problem here is not the intention, but the result. I never once suggested that anyone had sinister motivations. From past experiences we can clearly see trends that develop along these lines have not turned out well for the dance, although many individuals end up benefiting at the expense of the dance. Why not operate on the side of caution?

Quote:

From an ideal point of view, I would prefer it to be less hurtful towards all concerned. Sometimes hurt is unavoidable as there is a big difference between some being hurt because someone does not agree with what you are saying and someone being hurt because someone has attacked them or their character.

I agree and have tried very hard to refrain from that behavior.

Quote:

I have said things in other posts which have upset people. I ignored it because I have the freedom to say.. I dislike...for example.. Shamadan and think it looks like a caged contraption perched on someones head.
If people want to have a pop at me and accuse me of personal crimes because of that, then it is really their problem and it is their fragile ego that needs to be looked at.

Agreed

Quote:

People take others dislikes so personally and want to change their piont of view and sometimes through discussion minds can change, mine frequently do, but sometimes they don't and wont no matter how hard you try.

I rarely like or dislike someone else's point of view. What I do not like is twisting the "facts" to suit one's personal needs, or telling half the truth.

Quote:

Sweeping generalisations do make people feel under attack and so does not being heard. It all happend here and it spiralled into murky water.

Quote:

We all need to learn from this and avoid mud slinging were possible. Like I said before, there are some people who are just waiting for this to happen.
Just look at the amount of hits a thread gets when it turns into a mud wresting match!

[/quote]

I am not really concerned about the people who love to tune into mud slinging, though I know they exist. I am concerned about the mud slinging itself. If we remain civil than there is no mud slinging for them to enjoy.

Off to give you Rep now, and I would give it twice if possible.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 06-23-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

...Rashid who danced with Jamila....

I danced in a show 2 days ago where Rashid appeared - he's still around.

Aisha Azar · 06-23-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

I danced in a show 2 days ago where Rashid appeared - he's still around.

Dear Zorba,
I have not seen Rashid for some years.I worked at Rakassah some years ago when I was visiting friends in my old stomping grounds of San Francisco and met him then. I think he might still be designing costumes for Suhaila and I am pleased to hear that he is still dancing! He has been around a lpong, long time! I had made a fully beaded vest for Aziz that he did not buy because he stopped dancing for awhile, and Rashid wanted it, but he was just a teensy bit too broad through the chest. ( Aziz is a tall, thin drink of water.) The vest ended up being purchased by a dancer who lives in Minnesota and danced at the time with Cassandra. I can not remember his name. Rashid looked great in it...too bad.
Regards,
A'isha

Makeda Maysa · 06-23-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Historically you are totally right and in modern day terms, the hip hop and gang scene can be pretty aggressive too.

Okay, wow. I haven't participated in this thread up until now, but this? A bit overboard in my opinion.

The gang "scene" is, indeed, aggressive. However, hip-hop is not inherently aggressive, nor is it necessarily linked to gangs.

06-23-2008, 10:11 AM	#126 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,376	Ok a groups hugs out then! Not usually my style anyway. I agree with you all and I could see what was going on and all the mis-communication and it is very FRUSTRATING when that happens. I agree about the motivations point and I dont think there were sinister motivations behind male shows at all and I gather from these posts that 99% dont. I do agree with A'isha about many of her points and concerns and see where they come from, they just dont lead me to the ultimate conclusion in the same way. Like I said, this is a forum and we do learn alot from being here about others perspectives. From an ideal point of view, I would prefer it to be less hurtful towards all concerned. Sometimes hurt is unavoidable as there is a big difference between some being hurt because someone does not agree with what you are saying and someone being hurt because someone has attacked them or their character. I have said things in other posts which have upset people. I ignored it because I have the freedom to say.. I dislike...for example.. Shamadan and think it looks like a caged contraption perched on someones head. If people want to have a pop at me and accuse me of personal crimes because of that, then it is really their problem and it is their fragile ego that needs to be looked at. People take others dislikes so personally and want to change their piont of view and sometimes through discussion minds can change, mine frequently do, but sometimes they dont and wont no matter how hard you try. Sweeping generalisations do make people feel under attack and so does not being heard. It all happend here and it spiralled into murky water. We all need to learn from this and avoid mud slinging were possible. Like I said before, there are some people who are just waiting for this to happen. Just look at the amount of hits a thread gets when it turns into a mud wresting match!