Tarik Sultan

Exactly. If it ever gets to the point where a man can ONLY dance in an all male show then count me out. Such a situation would not be helping male dancers but limiting them. As with other dance form, the occasional thing is fine. Making it a MUST DO is something different. Its like in the past Afro Americans chose to socialize with each other because of various reasons, but Jim Crow Laws forcing them to be separate at all times was completely different. The main thing was in one situation people had free will and choice, in the other, they had no choice, they were forced.

Tarik Sultan

Dear Jenc:

I second Khanjar. This is exactly what I mean. BEcause you have reached a certain age society wants to make believe you no longer have a sex drive. You have to make believe and go along with the bullshit or else you get labeled DIRTY, for having natural biological and psychological responses. In other words you are being penalized for being ALIVE! This is what aging becomes in our society a slow sanctioned march to self imposed/conformed death. First they take away your sexuality, then they take away you beauty, then they take away your mobility, then your agency, then rights to an opinion or self determination till they shut you up in a home and wait for you to die. I think in many ways women are saying SCREW THAT or at least are deeply resentful of the mentality but don't know how to fight back and so, at times it spills out in such behavior. I think if women, young and old were truly valued by society and thought to live lives that were meaningful and fulfilling at every age, there would be far less of this sort of acting out.

I think its good that we discuss this sort of thing so that we get to the root of the problem and can begin to make meaningful changes in our lives and in society as a whole!

Caroline_afifi

[quote=A'isha Azar;76795]Dear Caroline,

The issue is that men are already excluded from classes and all female shows etc. To only allow them to grace a stage in the presence of women whom permit it does sound restrictive.



I place the blame on individual and collective responsibility. No one can get me to scream if I dont want to. Has society not preogressed at all in the last 50 years? An active audience moved by a performance is fine and dandy but shrieking at someone just because they are the opposite sex is just beyond me.

I dont do that but for someone like me who has studied social education, dance and other forms of art are the best tools we have as a society for personal development and tackling anti-social behaviour. It is too long to go into honestly.


Re the woman who slid sensuously out of her belt.

We are allowed to have expectations when it comes to profesional conduct.



I do see the difference but I dont agree. The very nature of this dance means that your average man will always have a fear of it for all the reasons discussed a million times. It is highly unlikely we will ever see equal numbers.
The very nature of this dance means for me that the men whom choose to take part with so much judgement stacked against them from Men and women derserve at least a little compassion. If you are asked to be in a show, do you ask if it is all inclusive?
We have enough to deal with with all the rubbish which is often passed as belly dance without making good male dancers are enemies.

Caroline_afifi

No. I think some just believe they are fantastic in the way some female dancers do, if enough people tell you then you believe it. People get good at blocking out the critics and label them as something else.
If men get a huge reaction then why wouldnt they think they were the best thing since Elvis. Men are sensitive and vulnerable and are human beings too.
Experience is the greatest thing that all people have and experience tells us when people are slavering or genuinely enjoyed it. We have to become wise and real in our own assesment of what is good. Those who dont are what I refer to as masturbators as they generally dont care as long as they are performing and have an audience.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,

At least that is the myth. I have seen men in classes and teaching classes for as long as I have been dancing. One of my first teachers was a man. Men have worked in every type of venue that I have worked in for as long as I have been dancing. I do intend to be restrictive now, but I believe the trend was started by the people who started the all male show and not by me. I am restrictive in response and not doing anything they are not doing, but you point a finger at me instead of them. Nice.




The fault lies in training that has happened over eons and is not going to go away just because a few intelligent women do not do it. As long as men respond to it, or as long as women do, depending on the circumstances, then it will continue. Men often act the same way with the "take it off baby" nonsense. Often it is not even anything at all to do with the performer and has much more to do with the people that the screamers are associating with.

Having studied sociology, psychology, etc. ( Working in a university for 7 years had its pay offs!!) I can tell you much of our behaviors are hard wired in. War certainly seems to be. No society is free from violence and I feel that art is not the key to changing that since some art actually enhances violent feelings. I feel that making it known to children from the time they are babies that human beings have violent feelings but that they can choose every day not to act on them is one of the main keys in changing behaviors. A few male dancers doing a show without females does not help to end violence, nor does a few males dancing do anything to improve the situation.


But clearly this kind of thing happens no matter what our expectations are. I would also expect that women would not whoop and holler at male dancers, but there you are. Next time you are in a room full of them, tell them to stop.



.

Oddly enough, when I have discussed "the very nature of this dance" I have been told I am full of it.


Is any man in this dance choosing not to be there? They know all of this going in, just as women know the down side of the dance for themselves. There is nothing stacked against males or females that they should not be prepared for if they choose to indulge in this activity. Among dancers, males are pretty much well accepted. I can name one exception Men can't dance in a few clubs? So what? Neither can I. They seem to be doing fine in every other area of dance.
I do not ask if it is all inclusive, because as you point out, the numbers are not set up for every show to have an equal number of men and women, or even any men at all. In the past I tended to include men in my shows more than most, putting my money where my mouth was in support of them. I will not be doing so any more since men are now excluding women. Why should I not act the same way they are? What is the difference? There is none.


[/quote]

And what do you think the difference will be when the dance is overrun with testosterone because of men and women who refuse to accept the "very nature of the dance"? Taking the long view, it will be the same kind of problem that the rubbish which is currently passed off as belly dance is causing.

The fact that a lot of people scream their heads off for ANY male dancer does not encourage me to think that people necessarily know there is a difference between a good male dancer and a bad one.

You know, this is getting to be a round robin argument, so I am done. If no one wants to look at this in any light except how much men should do whatever they want because they have not had a fair shake, then I really can't change anyone's mind or make them see the bigger picture. It seems to me that a lot of women are buying into a mythology that the men have it rougher than we do when it is not really true. But I can guarantee that more shows are on the way in which women will be excluded. This is not a one time thing.
Regards,
A'isha

PrinceKayammer

Dear middle aged women of this forum,if anyone want to say anything about as and our show can say it.but we are not "a few male bellydancers"...we have names so if you want to say something say it in our face!

__________________
Prince Kayammerبرنس قيامر

Male Belly Dancer SERKAN

And I have enough of this talking!!!
Why always you???Why other or we don't have a problem???Only you are making problem of this???
ASP to me!!You called me Sexist!!!Like I'm enemy of woman!!
I always organize shows all this years with female dancers.I never but never against to female dancers.Always I love to dance ,share stage with female dancers.I love female dancers (good dancers ofcourse!!!)maybe you are scary about this but good dancers sould be never scary about this!!Because they will be always welcome in show/dance life!!!

And again 'm saying I have enough of reading your posts about Male dancers against to female's!!(Even without using our name.But Everybody know we are organizing Male show!!People in this forum is not stupid.They know you are talking about who!!)

This is not WAR!!!!!You want to start one war.Don't provokate nobody!!!!!

Just Lets DANCE!!!!!!!!!!

without looking to SEX!!!

Suheir

US dancer JimBoz is being hosted in the UK this summer. Here's an extract from the flyer for one of his forthcoming appearances here: "At last year's International Bellydance Congress everyone was talking about one dancer from the US. Jim Boz. He took the place by storm and when he danced the crowd went wild!"

Now, did the crowd "go wild" because he was the most amazing Oriental dancer anyone had ever seen, or was it because he's a big, muscly man?

No disrespect to JimBoz, from the clips I've seen he's a very competent and entertaining performer and I've read glowing reviews of his workshops. However, I wonder why Fahtiem, a more experienced dancer from the US, who also appeared at the Belly Dance Congress, wasn't invited back instead?

Aisha Azar

And I would suggest the same to YOU since YOU are the one who made a show based on gender in the first place, not me.
If you are threatening me in some way with that statement about "Don't provokate nobody", I would back off if I were you.

Male Belly Dancer SERKAN

I Think you will be never understand right???
I try to talk to you gentel way but You never listen or you have a problem to understand.
You can think about what you want.But I'll not play your game.I HAVE ENOUGH OF YOUR WAY OF THINKING!! I told you I never,ever against to female dancers.I give you all this explanations but you never understand.
Continue your way.
Good bless you!!!or what ever!!