Caroline_afifi

OK, so what are you doing with Liberace's Grand Piano?

Zorba

I wish it were mine! What a beaut!

As for Liberace - I've always admired his style. A guy after my own heart.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aisha Azar

You know, when you honestly want to talk with me about this, let me know. If you had any genuine interest in discussing the issue with me, I would be happy to respond.

Outi

I know I should just let this rest.. and don't get involved

As for dance terminology, Egyptians (and at least some other Arabs) use the word belly (oriental) dance only for cabare-style dance. They make a huge difference between folkloric and belly dance. In this light shaabi would not considered to be belly dance. Then there are folkloric styles (saidi etc.) done in belly dance (cabare) performance, which is again a little bit different, mixing both styles - cabaret (belly dance) and folkloric.

As for the banning permits of male dancers..
I don't agree with it, but I think that it helps to understand why this might be happening. Homophobia, new situation to actually have male belly dancers, new person to make decision for this issue or some other...

__________________
http://www.outiofcairo.com

Caroline_afifi

[quote]Yes, night Clubs are also called belly dancing clubs and the dancers dance 'shaabi' not just 'Orientale'. Like you say, Saaidi can be part of an 'Oriental show'.
Egyptians tend not to split hairs to the degree teachers of dance do.

Caroline_afifi

Sorry if I sounded flipant or frustrated. Of course I would like to discuss this further.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,
You read what Outi said? She lives in Cairo and dances there. I have had the same experience myself, where Arabs call professional belly dance "belly dance" or Raq Sharghi ( and according to both Saudis and Egyptians I have spoken to, that is the "proper" pronunciation), and everything else by some other name. Especially among males that I know or have met, they seem to want to make darn sure I do not mistake their dancing for belly dance. Mark Basyouni is just one who has that attitude. I HAVE heard Arabs refer to other dances as "belly dance" when they were not sure the person to whom they were speaking would understand words like Saidi, beledi, shaabi. In my experience, Egyptians do seem to split hairs, and even Egyptian dancers do. Just this week end, I watched a video with another dancer who was visiting me and we saw Fifi Abdou ask her audience if they wanted Beledi or Saidi dance. I have mentioned this video before in another part of the forum, I think...???
In my opinion, as a teacher who is not native, teaching non natives for the most part, I need to take the extra time to make things as clearly defined as possible. My students are for the most part, not culturally aware of subtle differences that Egyptians, like Mark Basyouni and Madame Fifi, seem to acknowledge. As an educator, I would be remiss if I did not call attention to that.
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi

Ok, I dont actually disagree but if other dance styles like shaabi, alexandrian etc are included in the 45 mins of an Orientale show, this becomes confusing. Egyptians i know recognise the styles within it but they still refer to the whole show as a belly dance show. Do you really not get what I am saying?
They still see the dancer as a 'belly dancer'. Breaking down styles is ok for teaching but it gets very complex outside of this.

Caroline_afifi

PS, my life is divided between the UK and Cairo. I go back next week and again next month. I am married to an Egyptian and I was the Trustee for the Liverpool Arbic Club and Nadey Al Cul for 10 years. I am one of the founder members of the Liverpool Arab Arts Festival and I own an Egyptian restaurant. My mothers name is Selma and my grandfather was Waleed. It is not about who knows the most Arabs etc. and this is my whole point. I know from my experience that it is difficult for everyone to agree on anything.
The dance community has a very different perspectrive from the non dance community anywhere.

Tarik Sultan

Dear Caroline:

It's not that A'isha doesn't read my posts, believe me, we all know she does. It's that she refuses to answer me because after literally years of fruitless attempts at communicating with her, I finally told her what I think of her attitude, taking my words out of context, putting words in my mouth, asking me questions, then ignoring the answers when given by taking the conversation off topic, OR pretending to "NOT UNDERSTAND".

She works herself up in a tizzy about NOTHING. Now she's not going to work with any male or female dancer who has an all male event? Before I gave her the last good piece of my mind I mentioned that her good buddy whom she highly recommends Mark, is going to be doing an all male show next week. She ignored this fact, but that's typical A'isha Azar. So you might want to ask her, A) has she pistol whipped Mark into not participating in the event, or B) is he now the first on her shit list?

I think this who brew ha, ha is ridiculous.

So this question is not directed at you A'isha, but to the rest of the forum. If there are those of you who object to all male shows, exactly what is it that you feel will happen? I've mentioned before that all the other dance forms, ballet, Modern, Jazz, Flamenco, Hula, Hip-Hop have had all male shows. No one perceived it as being detrimental to those dance forms, or discriminatory to women. Hell, there's even a ballet company made up of men in drag. Couldn't we take issue with this? Women are good enough to imitate, but NOT to be part of that company.

Seriously, I'd like an answer from SOMEONE, anyone, who can communicate without resorting to acting stupid as if they don't understand plain English. And I promise not to be an ASS or as sarcastic as I was in this post, on my honor!