Male dancers denied Egyptian permits... - Page 7

karena · 05-19-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Yes it is, agreed. But it shouldn't be...

How would we make sense of the world, or communicate with any mutual understanding if it wasn't?

Aisha Azar · 05-19-2008, 05:47 PM

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

A'isha, I have honestly never met anyone who attempts to narrow down and define this dance as much as you do.
Your Deinition of 'Rags SharGHi' as you put it is not shared by any Arabs I know, and according to you, Shaabi is not 'belly dance' either. never heard this in my life.

I attempt to define it in order to teach it. As far as Shaabi not being belly dance, you wou;d have to talk to Mark Basyouni about that. It is his definition I am speaking of here, not mine. My definitions have been learned from Arabs.
As you say, they do not all think alike, but I have found that the majority definitely think belly dance is a female pastime. If you have not found this to be true, I don;t know why, since about 99 percent of those I know do think this. nI happen to think it is right for both males and females, but has a definite feminine essence, myself, which is different from the way most Arabs, both male and female, think about the dance. I do not insist that they are wrong and I am right.

Quote:

I assume you will only be discussing 'Line dancing' from now on?

.... I can not address this since I do not understand it.

Quote:

A'isha,
If Tarik is right in what he says, then your issue is firmly with the women who organise these shows. Despite the fact that Tarik has mentioned this on more than one occasion, you have ignored their involvemnt and choose to target the performers. Why?

I have not been reading Tarik's posts. If women are involved in this, I will also make sure that I do not hire women involved in sponsoring all male events, either. It is pretty common for people to be involved in all manner of prejudices without comprehending the deeper issues.

Quote:

You are naming people 'who have played no part in this,' where they asked to dance and then refused on principle?

[/quote]

I am sorry, but I have no idea what your comment above means in correlation to this conversation....?????

In rereading, I think you are asking me why I will still work with Mark Basyouni??? I will work with him because he is not part of the belly dance community, and therefore truly not involved on any level. He is a great dancer in his own right, but he is just a guy who happens to love to dance shaabi, not a professional dancer. He does truly fine shaabi. He is married to one of friends, who is also from Alexandria. Last week at a party, Mark and I were dancing and I told him that I thought belly dancers would love to take a dance class from him. He was automatically very adamant that he is not a belly dancer and I explained to him that we are eager to learn shaabi as well. We discussed it for awhile and he thought that it sounded like a good idea. We will see if he feels the same the next time we talk. If so, I intend to set up a workshop and hafla.

Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 05-19-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karena

How would we make sense of the world, or communicate with any mutual understanding if it wasn't?

By basing our communications in ULTIMATE REALITY. All else is relative. In order to have a meaningful conversation on a given subject, it is necessary to have a common frame of reference - to quote Mr. Spock. Yes, culture provides one. So in order to have a conversation with someone of a different culture, it becomes necessary to "download" cultural information in order to establish the "common frame of reference" - UNLESS - one can base their conversations upon ULTIMATE REALITY.

Now, I'll be the VERY first to admit, that this is an ideal. Finding ULTIMATE REALITY has involved lifetimes of people far wiser than I am - I don't claim to have it all. But the ULTIMATE REALITY that I do have, I use - and try to avoid relativistic "frames of reference" whenever/wherever I can.

One of those is so-called "masculine/feminine". It it ain't biology, it ain't real. My favorite illustration of this is the topic of men wearing skirts. Logic would dictate that men SHOULD be the ones to wear skirts - due to the anatomy involved (biology again). Yet the whole concept of men in skirts is culturally based - many cultures have had skirted men throughout this large world (in space AND time), many have not. TOTALLY arbitrary, no REAL meaning here...

Caroline_afifi · 05-19-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

I attempt to define it in order to teach it. As far as Shaabi not being belly dance, you wou;d have to talk to Mark Basyouni about that. It is his definition I am speaking of here, not mine. My definitions have been learned from Arabs.
As you say, they do not all think alike, but I have found that the majority definitely think belly dance is a female pastime. If you have not found this to be true, I don;t know why, since about 99 percent of those I know do think this. nI happen to think it is right for both males and females, but has a definite feminine essence, myself, which is different from the way most Arabs, both male and female, think about the dance. I do not insist that they are wrong and I am right.

My understanding and terms have been from Egyptians, which is why I made the comments before about the use of the term 'Arabs' not being the same etc.

The 'line dancing' comment you can igmore, but it was in relation to you saying about people from outside Egypt and Turkey saying how the dance should be.

Quote:

I have not been reading Tarik's posts. If women are involved in this, I will also make sure that I do not hire women involved in sponsoring all male events, either. It is pretty common for people to be involved in all manner of prejudices without comprehending the deeper issues.

Then you really should in order to participate in this discussion without confusion.

[/QUote

Quote:

I am sorry, but I have no idea what your comment above means in correlation to this conversation, or maybe, in any conversation....?????

Regards,
A;isha

This is in relation to you inviting men to dance whom have 'no part' in all male shows. I was wondering if they had been asked and turned the offer down on principle? or what. How do they have no part?

Aisha Azar · 05-19-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

By basing our communications in ULTIMATE REALITY. All else is relative. In order to have a meaningful conversation on a given subject, it is necessary to have a common frame of reference - to quote Mr. Spock. Yes, culture provides one. So in order to have a conversation with someone of a different culture, it becomes necessary to "download" cultural information in order to establish the "common frame of reference" - UNLESS - one can base their conversations upon ULTIMATE REALITY.

Now, I'll be the VERY first to admit, that this is an ideal. Finding ULTIMATE REALITY has involved lifetimes of people far wiser than I am - I don't claim to have it all. But the ULTIMATE REALITY that I do have, I use - and try to avoid relativistic "frames of reference" whenever/wherever I can.

One of those is so-called "masculine/feminine". It it ain't biology, it ain't real. My favorite illustration of this is the topic of men wearing skirts. Logic would dictate that men SHOULD be the ones to wear skirts - due to the anatomy involved (biology again). Yet the whole concept of men in skirts is culturally based - many cultures have had skirted men throughout this large world (in space AND time), many have not. TOTALLY arbitrary, no REAL meaning here...

Dear Zorba,
... there is nothing more ultimately real in biology than male and female....
Hugs to you,
A'isha

Aisha Azar · 05-19-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

This is in relation to you inviting men to dance whom have 'no part' in all male shows. I was wondering if they had been asked and turned the offer down on principle? or what. How do they have no part?

Dear Caroline,
I am sorry, but I am still not clear why the comment about all Arabs no being the same was relevant.

Re Tarik's post: I obviously have been able to contribute to this thread without reading them.

Re still sponsoring men who have no part in all male shows: I did do an addendum in my post above, but I will just say there that Mark Basyouni is not a professional dancer and he is not involved with the belly dance community in any way other than that he knows me and used to work in hotels in a non entertainment capacity,where a few famous dancers also worked. For more, please see my other post.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 05-19-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Zorba,
... there is nothing more ultimately real in biology than male and female....
Hugs to you,
A'isha

This is absolutely correct!

Caroline_afifi · 05-19-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,
I am sorry, but I am still not clear why the comment about all Arabs no being the same was relevant.

You mentioned that you do not talk of things from your own experience of the Middle East but basically regurgitate what your 'Arab' friends tell you.
My point is all 'Arab' are different and have different views.

Quote:

Re Tarik's post: I obviously have been able to contribute to this thread without reading them.

But you didnt know what I was talking about so I suggested you read Tariks post to understand them. It would be interested to know why you didnt read Tarik's post but read mine? is it because he is a performer in an all male show?

Quote:

Re still sponsoring men who have no part in all male shows: I did do an addendum in my post above, but I will just say there that Mark Basyouni is not a professional dancer and he is not involved with the belly dance community in any way other than that he knows me and used to work in hotels in a non entertainment capacity,where a few famous dancers also worked. For more, please see my other post.
Regards,
A'isha

And he is the source of your definitions?

karena · 05-19-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

By basing our communications in ULTIMATE REALITY. All else is relative. In order to have a meaningful conversation on a given subject, it is necessary to have a common frame of reference - to quote Mr. Spock. Yes, culture provides one. So in order to have a conversation with someone of a different culture, it becomes necessary to "download" cultural information in order to establish the "common frame of reference" - UNLESS - one can base their conversations upon ULTIMATE REALITY.

Now, I'll be the VERY first to admit, that this is an ideal. Finding ULTIMATE REALITY has involved lifetimes of people far wiser than I am - I don't claim to have it all. But the ULTIMATE REALITY that I do have, I use - and try to avoid relativistic "frames of reference" whenever/wherever I can.

One of those is so-called "masculine/feminine". It it ain't biology, it ain't real. My favorite illustration of this is the topic of men wearing skirts. Logic would dictate that men SHOULD be the ones to wear skirts - due to the anatomy involved (biology again). Yet the whole concept of men in skirts is culturally based - many cultures have had skirted men throughout this large world (in space AND time), many have not. TOTALLY arbitrary, no REAL meaning here...

Oh I see where we differ. I don't do ultimate reality, far too positivist for me, so we'll never agree. But that's what makes the world go round

And that skirt thing, I don't think you've ever been a lady on a hot day where wearing a skirt is just so much better for biological reasons.

But I am too much within the polite british lady social construct/culture/frame of reference to go there

Zorba · 05-19-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karena

Oh I see where we differ. I don't do ultimate reality, far too positivist for me, so we'll never agree. But that's what makes the world go round

That's fine. A'isha and I can go around about the most hair splitting definitions some times - and she's far better at it than I am!

Quote:

And that skirt thing, I don't think you've ever been a lady on a hot day where wearing a skirt is just so much better for biological reasons.

But I am too much within the polite british lady social construct/culture/frame of reference to go there

Nope, can't say as I've ever been a lady!

But I can certainly relate to a skirt's comfort on a hot day! And the clowns I work with just can't understand why I prefer skirts...