Caroline_afifi

[quote=A'isha Azar;74011]A'isha,

What issues have you also perceived?
I thought you were clearly into 'this is male and this is female' etc. and 'men should and should not do this and that'
I am utterly confused now.

Aisha Azar

[quote=Caroline_afifi;74015][quote=A'isha Azar;74011]

Dear Caroline,
When I made the statement about daring to point fingers, I was thinking of all the iniquities in our own societies that we do not look at in favor of pointing out those in other countries. I try VERY hard not to do this because I do not live in those other countries and can have only a very superficial understanding of how things work anywhere but where I live. ( This is why, instead of telling about the Arab experience from my own point of view, I often prefer to report what my friends say. They see life through very culturally distinct eyes and can tell me far better than anyone else what it is like to be Arab.) We complain that males can not be licensed to dance in Egypt, while we allow only a few women to get past the glass ceiling and become company executives, or make it a huge thing when a male gets molested, while it has happened to girls just as often, if not more. By "we", I mean all those who point fingers without first looking at their own situation. It is not a "we" directed at specific people, but rather a ubiquitous term often found in writing when one means to discuss a large group of people.
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi

[quote=A'isha Azar;74018][quote=Caroline_afifi;74015][quote=A'isha Azar;74011]



The thing is, Arabs do not all fit into one spicy pot. Egyptians have little in common with Moroccans etc. My husband just came back after a very short visit and complained that no one spoke arabic. He has friends in the UK who are from Yemen and are totally foreign to him in terms of they speak live and eat. One of my other 'Arab' friends sits on various boards on coucil steering groups and cringes at some of the things other 'Arabs' say.
There is not 'one' voice from the Arab world and each country and each person in his/her country has their own ways and issues to deal with.


Also, can we not have political opinions regarding other countries?
What is Amnesty International all about, and Greenpeace?
I am sure the Japanese must have a different story to tell when it comes to harpooning whales.
We have an International community that belongs to all of us.

Zorba

Sorry for not being clear. What I meant was I get grouchy with male dancers who go on about what MEN they are - more of a general comment. Not necessarily connected with any "male only" (or otherwise) events. For the record, I don't consider YOU such a guy in the first place! I dunno if this clears it up or not, but "that" wasn't what I meant...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Zorba

But of course it is. Its arbitrary. It has no grounding in ultimate truth. If it did, it would be universal. It isn't - because it can't be.

But we've had this argument before...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aisha Azar

[quote=Caroline_afifi;74017]
Dear Caroline,
I believe that there are some things that have an innate spirit of masculine or feminine. This does not mean that I feel that the opposite sex, or any mixture there of should not take part in those pursuits. But I do believe that regardless of gender, we should honor certain elements of those pursuits, especially the innate nature of them, if those pursuits are to retain their meaning and feeling and purpose. There are males who are not "girly", who totally get the feminine essence of belly dance and honor it. I am not so sure why those outside the Arab and Turkish cultures are so quick to tell those from the cultures what the dance is and should be, when it is not up to us to decide for them. My thinking and feeling about their ideas of what the dance is, is beside the point. Within my own culture, this is another matter.
Like Zorba,I have perceived that all male shows are prejudicial to women and to men, in that they discriminate against women by excluding them and against men by making them somehow extraordinary, when they profess to only want to be one of the gang, so to speak. If you want to know my views beyond that, go to the forums where you have already made it quite clear that you think I am way off base. You already must know exactly where I stand if your responses to my other posts were so adamant. I have repeatedly stated that I am in favor of males dancing, but when it comes to an all male show, I am way against that. Women are good enough to be paying audience members and students, I guess. But in ANY situation where males are an exclusive item, the message is every bit as prejudicial as what is going on in Egypt with not giving males a license. I see no difference. I have been a staunch supporter of male dancers and have consistently put my money where my mouth is by hiring males for performance and for instruction, and by coaching and teaching males. I have stated this all many times so you must know that by now. Because of the introduction of all male events, I feel totally disinclined to hire anyone who is part of an all male show or instruction event, and I will check carefully in the future before hiring any male to make sure they have not done so. There are deserving females out there who are not discriminating against anyone and I will sponsor them instead of promoting males so much any more.
I am going to make one exception. I am thinking of hiring a gentleman named Mark Basyouni, an Alexandrian, to teach shaabi in the near future. He has no part in this situation.
Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,


We can certainly have political opinions about other countries, but in the end, it is up to the governments and peoples of those countries to do as they see fit unless the issue is universal. An extreme example of what can happen when countries do not allow each other this freedom is the American invasion of Iraq. The international community does not belong to all of us in the sense that we have the right to tell others how to act, for many reasons. It does belong to us in that we can do what we can to stop suffering of all kinds, address universal issues that affect human kind in general, and to rejoice in ways that others celebrate themselves, whether or not we entirely understand them.

Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi

[quote=A'isha Azar;74023][quote=Caroline_afifi;74017]


.

A'isha, I have honestly never met anyone who attempts to narrow down and define this dance as much as you do.
Your Deinition of 'Rags SharGHi' as you put it is not shared by any Arabs I know, and according to you, Shaabi is not 'belly dance' either. never heard this in my life.

I assume you will only be discussing 'Line dancing' from now on?




A'isha,
If Tarik is right in what he says, then your issue is firmly with the women who organise these shows. Despite the fact that Tarik has mentioned this on more than one occasion, you have ignored their involvemnt and choose to target the performers. Why?

]

You are naming people 'who have played no part in this,' where they asked to dance and then refused on principle?

cathy

Speaking of "cracking ethno centrism" (Marya) I read a study yesterday where physical & mental health surveys were done in people still living in countries of origin, immigrants who had been living in a new culture a year or longer, and also first-generation born in the new culture. To the surprise of the researchers, the physical AND MENTAL health of immigrants living in a new culture a year or longer (the actual transplants) was statistically HIGHER than either of the other two groups. They were expecting to find just opposite, assuming that learning to live in a new culture would involve strains and hardships. I thought that was interesting.

I have also read that the longer you keep learning new skills in adulthood, the lower your risk of developing Alzheimer's in old age (another reason to keep practicing zills!)

Anyway, culture may not be part of the physical laws of the universe, if that's what you mean Zorba, but I think it is so deeply ingrained in 99% of all people that it is deeply relevant. Language for instance is the framework for forming and sharing thoughts and it is completely cultural. Dance arises from culture, cuisine, clothing, music....the way we see and think is culturally mediated.

I try very hard to be mindful of the problems in my own culture and way of thinking, but in recent years I am coming more around to the position that I don't have to accept everything in other cultures as "right for them" though. I don't think we are "making Iraqis free" or that they want democracy the way we think of it (cheeseburgers and the rest of commercial culture along with voting rights!) I also don't think female genital mutilation is something I need to become more open-minded about to fully understand. It's wrong, and not comparable to male circumcision as done in America. I think raping and abusing girls is as bad as doing the same to boys, or doing this to men is as bad as doing it to women. I think that all adults should be equally able to follow any pursuit or career available to them, regardless of whether they are male or female.

To bring it around full circle here, I think all so-called male and female pursuits are in large measure culturally prescribed. Yes, there are physical and hormonal differences and these in some part give rise to some aspects of the cultural differences. But I don't think these differences need limit us much AT ALL in the modern world, any more than skin color, hair type, and so forth.

I am very aware of sexism, racism, class politics, and homophobia in America and I don't like them any more here than anywhere else. Less, probably, because I feel more directly affected.

P.S. I think it was earlier in this thread that Tarik made the point about misogyny and homophobia being related. I think this is definitely true (in the West and East) and it comes from those in power (heterosexual men) delineating that other groups (women and gay men) as being definitely NOT in their category. Because of their (often subconscious) anxiety to keep this clear, straight men fear being either mistaken for being either female or gay. I think this is one reason why lesbianism does not stir up the same kind of anxiety for the power structure. It's also all related to preserving succession and inheritance rights.


Cathy

Zorba

At last! Someone who GETS IT!!
Yes it is, agreed. But it shouldn't be...
At last, someone who GETS IT!!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."