Male dancers denied Egyptian permits... - Page 3

Caroline_afifi · 05-16-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saqra

Yes, Yasmina's DVD is very good.

But seriously, it seems silly to require a permit for something in the arts. We as dancers can inspire, but we can't truly harm anything but someone's sensibilities unless we are doing some sort of politically-inspired and inspiring dancing.

Egypt isn't concerned that men might create something more political. Though I suppose someone somewhere could come up with something incomprehensible (to me) about endangering someone's soul?

Very sad that anywhere in the world people would find it necessary to try and limit something harmless (IMO) someone else wants to do instead of simply not watching what they don't want to watch.

Men should dance. Women should dance. People should dance. And the permit system is foolish.

~Saqra

Of course in an ideal world. It is not just dance, actors in the UK need and Equity card and it is the same in Egypt. A friend of mine who is Egyptian cant get his because they have closed the applications for two years running.

The dance permits are monitored by the vice section of the Egyptian Police and they can withdraw permits according to conduct.
Unless your friend is an officer or frequent customers to your venue.

Outi · 05-16-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

ha ha.. getting a permit is not a journey, it is an ordeal!

'
Heh

Tell me about it

Quote:

Outi, do you personally know any men who have been through this process?

No, I don't. There isn't any male belly dancer working in Cairo, as far as I know. Folklore boys are completely different story. Tito is only and first male belly dancer to get some name. In my opinion is not accident that he is working in Sharm el Sheik. There the customers are mainly western tourists.

It's so easy to say how things should be from distance - West, from another culture - without really knowing what's the things inside. I do understand Egyptian way of thinking, I don't always agree and some times I am totally against it, but I do understand the reasons. The proverb don't judge until you walked in his shoes is so right.

Caroline_afifi · 05-16-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outi

'
Heh

Tell me about it

Quote:

No, I don't. There isn't any male belly dancer working in Cairo, as far as I know. Folklore boys are completely different story. Tito is only and first male belly dancer to get some name. In my opinion is not accident that he is working in Sharm el Sheik. There the customers are mainly western tourists.

I agree with this point.

It's so easy to say how things should be from distance - West, from another culture - without really knowing what's the things inside. I do understand Egyptian way of thinking, I don't always agree and some times I am totally against it, but I do understand the reasons. The proverb don't judge until you walked in his shoes is so right.

Could you expand on this a little?

Saqra · 05-16-2008, 11:44 PM

Mmmmm. Yep, I definitely meant in an ideal world.
I truly understand how it all works and why, but I also truly find the sexism angle really a topper for "frustrating and silly."
~Saqs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Of course in an ideal world. It is not just dance, actors in the UK need and Equity card and it is the same in Egypt. A friend of mine who is Egyptian cant get his because they have closed the applications for two years running.

The dance permits are monitored by the vice section of the Egyptian Police and they can withdraw permits according to conduct.
Unless your friend is an officer or frequent customers to your venue.

Outi · 05-16-2008, 11:52 PM

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

Saqra · 05-17-2008, 12:15 AM

Different country. Different religious and social imperatives. Definitely a difference in needed social approaches to things for each society makes sense to me and I adjust to the cultural standards when I am there (just as I did in Japan or China or Ohio in the USA. I have no critique of Egypt's social norms as it is truly not my place to have an opinion.

I just find it frustrating that Egypt would regulate against men dancing when they are willing to be (barely) tolerant of women dancing. I understand that it is a culturally-based bias and that the same bias is active in the USA... which I also find frustrating.

Gender bias in the arts just irritates me.
It is apparently one of the last vestiges of idealism left in my psyche.

Yours,
Saqra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outi

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

Caroline_afifi · 05-17-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outi

I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside?

It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US.

Ok, thanks for that.
So how does this specifically relate to permits for male dancers for you?

Caroline_afifi · 05-17-2008, 10:35 AM

Ok, my initial snooping has found this.

Male dancers til now have applied for union membership as folkloric dancers (something i have know for a while) You have to be affiliated to a company or organisation to get this. Tito I assume has this?

Female belly dancers do not have to be part of this union but need their permits from the police whom have a department and keep watch (The 13th Floor of the Mogamma Building in Midan Tahrir is the Police Adeb ( Vice).
They deal with prostitution, brothels and belly dance.

There is no law against male prostitution in Egypt, no restriction on mens behaviour at all. Even men caught using prostitues are released and the women fined.
Therefore the concepts of men dancing and the restriction applied should not count.
The probelm seems to be new applications from male performers who are stating 'belly dance' and not 'folklore', and it is perhaps the presentation of this new situation, they do not know how to deal with or the process.

Tarik Sultan · 05-17-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Ok, my initial snooping has found this.

Male dancers til now have applied for union membership as folkloric dancers (something i have know for a while) You have to be affiliated to a company or organisation to get this. Tito I assume has this?

Female belly dancers do not have to be part of this union but need their permits from the police whom have a department and keep watch (The 13th Floor of the Mogamma Building in Midan Tahrir is the Police Adeb ( Vice).
They deal with prostitution, brothels and belly dance.

There is no law against male prostitution in Egypt, no restriction on mens behaviour at all. Even men caught using prostitues are released and the women fined.
Therefore the concepts of men dancing and the restriction applied should not count.
The probelm seems to be new applications from male performers who are stating 'belly dance' and not 'folklore', and it is perhaps the presentation of this new situation, they do not know how to deal with or the process.

Just the fact that dancers are dealt with by THE VICE SQUAD shows the mentality we have to deal with. Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

Caroline_afifi · 05-17-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Just the fact that dancers are dealt with by THE VICE SQUAD shows the mentality we have to deal with. Ironically, the flack we guys get, (homophobia included) is due to the negative image of women. Women are inferior to men - gays act like women - therefore, man wanting to do activities dominated by women must = gay, means he's not a real man -means he's inferior. Has anyone else ever picked up on that?

YES. Totally.

Males in my city call each other a 'girl' if they want to put each other down.

Men who want to do 'womens' activities are often seen as sub-human, but how does this explain men becoming top chefs, hairdressers, choreographers etc?

I really do not know the answer to this.

There is also a style and image consultant here on British TV called Gok Wan, he does a program called 'How To Look Good Naked'. My daughter worships the ground he walks on.
Is it women who make them famous or what?

05-16-2008, 11:52 PM	#25 (permalink)
Outi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 246	I assume you wanted me to explain about the judging from outside? It's not only about this male work permit thing, but a bigger issue. Just recently I have heard many foreign people criticise about some things in Egypt. Like veiling and other women issues etc. The thing is that these people don't really understand the background. The life in Egypt (and some other Arab countries) is different, the way of thinking is different. There are many big problems in Egypt, but I honestly don't know how those should be fixed. Western models don't work here. Same way as Western ways didn't really suit for Indian people in US. __________________ http://www.outiofcairo.com

05-17-2008, 10:35 AM	#28 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 812	Ok, my initial snooping has found this. Male dancers til now have applied for union membership as folkloric dancers (something i have know for a while) You have to be affiliated to a company or organisation to get this. Tito I assume has this? Female belly dancers do not have to be part of this union but need their permits from the police whom have a department and keep watch (The 13th Floor of the Mogamma Building in Midan Tahrir is the Police Adeb ( Vice). They deal with prostitution, brothels and belly dance. There is no law against male prostitution in Egypt, no restriction on mens behaviour at all. Even men caught using prostitues are released and the women fined. Therefore the concepts of men dancing and the restriction applied should not count. The probelm seems to be new applications from male performers who are stating 'belly dance' and not 'folklore', and it is perhaps the presentation of this new situation, they do not know how to deal with or the process.