Zorba

No I said there was a letter on GILDED SERPENT!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aisha Azar

Dear Zorba,
Sorry.... It was before BEFORE COFFEE!!!! I will try to hunt it up.
Regards,
A'isha

Kat

This is a link to the "letters" page. I think the letter Zorba references is the 3rd one down? Written by Nisima.
Letters to the editor of the Gilded Serpent

Caroline_afifi

LETS HEAR IT FOR TITO IN A TUTU!!

did anyone ever see him wear Bedlah?

She clearly states Western Western Western...

what a pompous prat she is.

Sorry folks, this little outbusrt is in response to the letters to the editor article.
It is about as intelligent as I could make it. Sorry

Aisha Azar

Dear Kat,
Thanks, I got there and read the comments. These are my thoughts on some of them.
Letter #5- Well, obviously this person has homophobia and because of that, he misses the point that the issue is about licensing men to dance and not about their sexual preferences! This kind of thinking is the norm in most patriarchal societies, and when men think of taking on any of the activities that are considered to be the work of women, this is a pretty common response. I do not like it, but I do recognize it as a common problem throughout male dominated societies. Women often even buy into it. We also need to realize that the average person in Egypt, or for that matter, anywhere, is not even going to respond to this article, or perhaps even read it. It is easy to forget that for the majority of people their world does not revolve around dance and they do not care one way or the other.

Letter #6- This writer does not distinguish between professional and shaabi dancing, or between folkloric and belly dance. Yes, people of both genders dance in Egypt and it has not been suggested that they do not. By the way, does Tito have a license and will it be revoked, or is he a special case? Does anyone know? She also sees men as having the "best technique", which is a prejudice in itself as both men and women who are good dancers have good technique and one is not "better" than the other. She is Egyptian and in some ways, has probably been culturally trained to see men as superior, though,of course this is a general statement and does not apply to every single Egyptian. ( I once asked a guy from the Gulf in what ways men were superior to women. His reply: "We are because God says it". Welllllllll, alrighty then.) I see this idea that some people have of men having "better technique" than women as being a growing problem, and having all male events will only exaggerate it. Men do not have better technique than women any more than women have better technique than men.

Letter #13- I think this woman understands the concept of feminine essence in the dance, but also uses it to justify men not dancing belly dance, as opposed to realizing that men can dance from this place as well. And this does not mean they have to be "girly". I pretty much agree with much of what she says besides that, in her views on the dance being overtaken with too much jazz and other influences, especially given that mostly non-Egyptians seem to be dancing in Egypt now.


I am not sure how some people can think it is such a crime to be prejudiced against men by not issuing them a license to perform, but be perfectly okay with men excluding women from performing or teaching at events. It looks like the same thing to me: gender prejudice.
At the same time, I think that Nisima makes some valid point about what women have to deal with to dance in Egypt, and about us minding our own glass houses.

Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar

Dear Gang,
As I was laying around in my clawfoot bath tub, perusing my toenail polish down where I was resting my feet on the rim, a few questions relevant to the issue of licensing occurred to me. Such as:

Do both male and female members of folklore troupes have to be licensed?

If so, is the criteria for licensing equitable and egalitarian?

Is the pay based on gender ( as it is in so many cases in the States), or is it equitable?

Does it make a difference whether or not the folklore company is government affiliated?

Does Tito have a license now and if not, how is he able to dance without one if the females can not? If so, how is he able to get one when other men can not?

Does Tito officially label himself a folkloric dancers or a dancer of Raqs Sharghi?

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Hey Zorba:

I read the letter by Nisima. I understand what irks you about it, but you have to understand that your perspective on gender roles are your unique perspective. Perhaps the day will come when we move away from such sharply delineated roles when it comes to dress and behavior between men and women, but this is not the day and Egypt is not the place where it will happen any time soon.

I do understand where she's coming from and agree to a degree. We all know that I'm not exactly a champion for gender bending, so I agree with her that men should present themselves as men in public, however, "MALE" is defined by that culture. Where I disagree with her is her analogy of the ballet. No men do not wear tutus or dance on point. They do not emulate womanly virtues, (as defined by our culture), but they DO dance. What they do IS ballet, but in the ballet there is a male version and a FEMALE version.
Even if the male dancer is gayer than a pair of Liberace's drawz, he is still expected to perform MEN'S ballet project a male identity and energy on stage. I feel that if men are to participate in Oriental dance it should be the same.

There is an energy in Oriental and Baladi that is emotional, expressive, gentle, graceful. I do not have a problem if people want to call this "feminine" energy, but where I DO draw the line is at any suggestion that a man should project a womanly persona or air onstage. A man should not loose that which makes him male on stage, no matter what his sexuality may or may not be. And this is why I object to or request that the term femininity be carefully qualified, if used in the context of describing male dance. Its not enough to say "feminine", you have to explain exactly what that means and more importantly what it does NOT mean.

So back to the issue. As I said before and in other threads, if a man is going to be dealing with the general public, American or in this case MIDDLE EASTERN, they must be fully aware of the challenges they will face and address them with wisdom. Egypt is a very gender delineated and conservative, patriarchal society. If men are going to find any measure of acceptance in a performance art that has until now been exclusively female, they have to do so in a way that shows they can do it and still project a positive and dynamic male identity. They are going to have to wear appropriate outfits, use gender appropriate names.

As far as discrimination, the way I feel is that if women are required to conform to certain norms in dress in real life, every second of every day, then men, whatever their orientation, should be able to do the same for the few minutes or hours it takes for them to do a show.

As I said before, Egypt has had a long history of having their reputations dragged through the mud with regards to the sexuality of their men. Those nerves are still raw and we have to be aware of that. Therefore, we cannot show up looking like their worse nightmare, triggering their fears of embarrassment and personifying the very thing that was used to slander their reputations.

Tarik Sultan

All dancers in Egypt have to be licensed. To be an Oriental dance soloist, a woman needs to have that type of license. The girls who dance in folk troupes most likely are licensed for that. Perhaps they also have one for Sharki if the also work in those types of venues.

TIto most likely has a folkloric license as he was first a member of a local troupe doing zeffas and wedding parties before working in Sharam and creating his own company. Although he is best known for doing Sharki, he does in fact do all the typical theater folk dances in his shows, therefore, most of what he does is theater folklore and the Sharki is only one of his acts.

As far as pay goes, I have no idea. I imagine everyone is paid the same in a folk troupe, but how much probably depends on the particular venue.

Caroline_afifi

What would be interesting to know is if the person (and it may have only been one to cause this) has applied as a foreigner or Egyptian?

It appears to me that only male dancers outside of Egypt experiment with costumes. and in some cases want 'male' bedlah.
This sort of thing will make Egyptians hot under the collar.

What made me laugh about the article was the part which talked about the East being different from the West, then went onto make examples of the West and Western Ethnic dance (what is this?) not accepting it, so why should they??!
The West do accept it, not in the terms she referenced but pretty much anything goes in the West and it's not quite the same in the East.

Male dancers can wear what they want in the West, but doing this in terms of MED dance is perceived as not 'in-keeping' with cultural values and norms.

The same goes for many aspects of this dance and Maria made a very good example in the floorwork thread.

It is just the way it goes.

Like I said in an earlier thread, if you dont push it in peoples faces then it is usually OK.
Someone pushed something in someones face and that was the problem. There is a lovely little bar (which I cannot name for obvious reasons) which has been going for years in Cairo. It is a little Gay bar and is arty and quaint. Everyone knows it is but the sign is not in neon lights.

The debate about freedom to wear what you want in MED in the 'west' is another issue.

Zorba

Understood and agree! Of course its my unique perspective! I've never said otherwise. It is an ideal - "someone" has to be an idealist (otherwise nothing changes), and I'm just cantankerous enough to be a "someone"!
I agree with this also - with the caveat that it isn't really possible to "lose" your masculinity. UNLESS a given dancer isn't dancing as her/himself, then it becomes a pastiche. And I'm VERY careful about what I call "feminine" - almost always using quotes as it is often employed in a cultural-relative context.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."