Male dancers denied Egyptian permits... - Page 11

Aisha Azar · 05-20-2008, 10:37 PM

Dear Caroline,

[

Quote:

QUOTE=Caroline_afifi;74119]Well at least we have some understanding but I will say this. Sometimes things do not fit into neat little packages and try too hard and you may destroy what you are trying to preserve.

I never thought that things did fit into neat little packages, but they are perhaps neater than some are willing to believe, what with Fifi and others definitely being sure to ask the Arab audience if they want to see Saidi or Beledi!!

Quote:

With regards to men, which is what we are discussing. Yes there are plenty of 'Arabs' I know who do not think men should be dancing. These same men view female dancers as sex objects and do not know how to view a

man.

And many people will try to deny that, but not me. This is because of the inherently feminine essence of the dance that so many people deny. Arab women often feel the same way.

Quote:

Other 'Arabs' I know, particularly women, do not want Western women doing this dance and do not feel it is their place to do it either. They can get quite passionate about this believe me.

That has happened to me a time or two in 34 years, but the more I know about Arab culture, the less it seems to happen. I can think of two women who really do hate it that I dance, but mostly I do not have much trouble from Arab females or males. For one thing, in my community, I have a very good reputation among the Arabs here and they let newcomers know it.

Quote:

Foreign dancers also had trouble in Cairo a few years back, until people realised how itegral they had become to the local and global scene. The same can happen for men too as I have pointed out.

Well, actually I was just talking to an Egyptian guy the other night about that and he said that it was Fifi Abdou who went to the government to get foreign dancers banned. She specifically targeted Russian dancers, who she felt were dancing for less and taking off their clothes far more. ( Remember that this is HIS explanation, not mine. I was not there at the time and he was.) It worked for a time, but the ban was lifted, though I heard from someone recently that it might be reinstated soon......can't remember who told me that. I think it was lifted due to financial circumstances and the fact that there are just not that many Egyptian women dancing at the moment, not from some psychologically "integral" issue. I have no issue with men becoming an integral part of the dance scene, as should be clear from my actions in the past. I DO have problems with men thinking that all male shows make some sort of statement other than that they feel okay about leaving women out of the equation. This is not "positive discrimination"; it is just discrimination. There is no reason on earth why it should happen considering that 90 percent of all women dancers, including me, have been only to happy to welcome them on an even footing. In some cases, more than even.

Quote:

I was VERY surprised how many people now know who Tito is (from Sharm) and that number will grow daily. People talk and the media is bringing it to the attention of the people.

[/quote]

And so what? How does this prove how downtrodden men are that they should have their own, females excluded shows and workshops? It seems to me that if we use him as an example, he is working plenty.

Regards,
A'isha

belly_dancer · 05-20-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

As has been stated before by others in this forum who know the individuals concerned far better than me, Serkan produces many shows during the year that are NOT gender specific. This is the first time he has done an all male show. Male dancers are relatively few in number and so having such a show allows the audience to see a minority that is usually very dispersed in one event at one time. It does not mean that from now on he is only doing all male shows. Further more, all male shows have been produced right here in the good old USA, by FEMALE DANCERS. Tamlyn Dallal did one last year and next week Keaish of Belly Queen is doing one in which Mark and I will be featured performers. Kaeishi is a woman and is definitely NOT discriminating against her fellow women any more than Tamlyn Dallal is.

So instead of choosing to be offended, one could simply choose to examine the many reasons why someone would have such events.

wouldn't having an all male show be similar, to say having an all tribal,,, or all egyptian,,,, or all turkish bd show.... just highlighting a different "style", or a different "product", if you will, that would interest a slightly different audience??

belly_dancer · 05-21-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Dear Caroline:

I

So this question is not directed at you A'isha, but to the rest of the forum. If there are those of you who object to all male shows, exactly what is it that you feel will happen? I've mentioned before that all the other dance forms, ballet, Modern, Jazz, Flamenco, Hula, Hip-Hop have had all male shows. No one perceived it as being detrimental to those dance forms, or discriminatory to women. Hell, there's even a ballet company made up of men in drag. Couldn't we take issue with this? Women are good enough to imitate, but NOT to be part of that company.

in regards to my previous post.. (am STILL not all the way thru to the end of this thread!)
so after being enlightened by others who felt an all male show was sexist/etc... (which were points I never thought of... then I thought of the chippendale dancers/etc... ewwwww!!! yuck) so I now I can see the discriminatory/etc. arguments AGAINST all male shows....
but then again as above where Mr T states above.... yeah...

and HERE are my questions for ALL of you... what about all female classes??
what about all male classes?? why & why not?? what about the audience preference (re. all male or female shows)?

Aisha Azar · 05-21-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belly_dancer

in regards to my previous post.. (am STILL not all the way thru to the end of this thread!)
so after being enlightened by others who felt an all male show was sexist/etc... (which were points I never thought of... then I thought of the chippendale dancers/etc... ewwwww!!! yuck) so I now I can see the discriminatory/etc. arguments AGAINST all male shows....
but then again as above where Mr T states above.... yeah...

and HERE are my questions for ALL of you... what about all female classes??
what about all male classes?? why & why not?? what about the audience preference (re. all male or female shows)?

Dear Belly_dancer,
I believe that since there are many more females than males in the world of dance, that it is probably natural that there would be all female shows, simply because the numbers are so much more numerous. I do not approve, however, of purposely excluding men. As far as all male or female classes go, I do not approve of excluding either gender from classes, either. If anyone wants to check the facts on me supporting male dancers, all they have to do is ask men who have been in my shows, taught workshops sponsored by me and taken classes or been coached by me. Almost everyone who knows me can tell you that I have no gender prejudices, and I do not want to buy into starting a trend of gender prejudices.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 05-21-2008, 03:42 AM

Not to further fan the flames - but there is now a letter on Gilded Serpent addressing this issue (as that's where the link came from in the first place). I'll leave it to everyone to go read it (the letter) and form their own opinions.

To say I'm slightly annoyed by it, would be an understatement...

Caroline_afifi · 05-21-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Not to further fan the flames - but there is now a letter on Gilded Serpent addressing this issue (as that's where the link came from in the first place). I'll leave it to everyone to go read it (the letter) and form their own opinions.

To say I'm slightly annoyed by it, would be an understatement...

Zorba, Do you mean 'letter' or comments under the article?

Caroline_afifi · 05-21-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Caroline,

[

I never thought that things did fit into neat little packages, but they are perhaps neater than some are willing to believe, what with Fifi and others definitely being sure to ask the Arab audience if they want to see Saidi or Beledi!!

man.

And many people will try to deny that, but not me. This is because of the inherently feminine essence of the dance that so many people deny. Arab women often feel the same way.

That has happened to me a time or two in 34 years, but the more I know about Arab culture, the less it seems to happen. I can think of two women who really do hate it that I dance, but mostly I do not have much trouble from Arab females or males. For one thing, in my community, I have a very good reputation among the Arabs here and they let newcomers know it.

Well, actually I was just talking to an Egyptian guy the other night about that and he said that it was Fifi Abdou who went to the government to get foreign dancers banned. She specifically targeted Russian dancers, who she felt were dancing for less and taking off their clothes far more. ( Remember that this is HIS explanation, not mine. I was not there at the time and he was.) It worked for a time, but the ban was lifted, though I heard from someone recently that it might be reinstated soon......can't remember who told me that. I think it was lifted due to financial circumstances and the fact that there are just not that many Egyptian women dancing at the moment, not from some psychologically "integral" issue. I have no issue with men becoming an integral part of the dance scene, as should be clear from my actions in the past. I DO have problems with men thinking that all male shows make some sort of statement other than that they feel okay about leaving women out of the equation. This is not "positive discrimination"; it is just discrimination. There is no reason on earth why it should happen considering that 90 percent of all women dancers, including me, have been only to happy to welcome them on an even footing. In some cases, more than even.

And so what? How does this prove how downtrodden men are that they should have their own, females excluded shows and workshops? It seems to me that if we use him as an example, he is working plenty.

Regards,
A'isha[/quote]

It is not actually possible to have a rational converation with you about this A'isha. Who, anywhere on this board has ever mentioned a 'Down trodden' man'?
Selective reading and putting your own interpretations on this issue or any other, is not going to work towards a deeper understanding of yourself or the wider issues.
You will of course respond to this and you are welcome as the last word is always yours and this apears to be far more important to you than the actual issue.
It seems to me that if something does not happen in your own world
then it did not happen, will not happen and should not exsist.

Aisha Azar · 05-21-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Not to further fan the flames - but there is now a letter on Gilded Serpent addressing this issue (as that's where the link came from in the first place). I'll leave it to everyone to go read it (the letter) and form their own opinions.

To say I'm slightly annoyed by it, would be an understatement...

Dear Zorba,

Big sigh here. I am such a Luddite. I can not find the article in Bhuz. Would you mind providing a link?
thankyou.
Regards,
A'isha

Dipali · 05-21-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Zorba,

Big sigh here. I am such a Luddite. I can not find the article in Bhuz. Would you mind providing a link?
thankyou.
Regards,
A'isha

Aisha for your convenience here it is.

Male belly dancers apply for permits in Egypt

Aisha Azar · 05-21-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dipali

Aisha for your convenience here it is.

Male belly dancers apply for permits in Egypt

Dear Dipali,
Thanks.
I read that article some time ago, but I thought that Zorba meant there was talk on Bhuz about it and I was interested to read what they had to say over there. I am not a participant on Bhuz because one forum takes up quite enough of my time, though it does seem to be an interesting forum.
Regards,
A'isha

05-21-2008, 03:42 AM	#105 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 857	Not to further fan the flames - but there is now a letter on Gilded Serpent addressing this issue (as that's where the link came from in the first place). I'll leave it to everyone to go read it (the letter) and form their own opinions. To say I'm slightly annoyed by it, would be an understatement... __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."