Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,
I am not worried about who knows the most Arabs, but I am worried that it is too easy for Westerners to get the idea that all of these very distinct dance styles can be lumped together, and as a teacher, that does concern me. This is why I am very careful to be as clear as possible.
Yes, I do understand your point about them all being performed during the course of a belly dance show, and I do see overlap in movement, but a great deal of difference in feeling and musical choice for different styles, if that make sense. And I agree that the dance community has a very different perspective on dance than does the larger community, no matter where.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba

I really can't say that I "object" to all male shows, I just don't really see the point in one for reasons I've already stated. If someone wants to have one, go for it I say. Whatever blows your skirt up. I do "object" to the "strutters" we've discussed before (again, NOT you Tarik!).

I think A'isha's point about "discrimination" is valid from the point of us males screaming "discrimination" anytime we're excluded from a show/class/workshop/whatever. This seems to be a really big problem in the UK, for instance. So the reverse could be construed as discrimination too.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

taheya

I do not agree that this positive 'discrimination' is the same as the discrimination that male dancers face eg. being excluded from performances/workshops etc and also being excluded from the dance capital Cairo. Male performers want to be taken seriously and not be the token male in an all female show. An all male event could be the first step in breaking down these barriers as the participants wil not be viewed as the odd one out if you know what I mean! Hopefully the barriers will start to be break down and male performers might be taken seriously in the eyes of the general public.

Caroline_afifi

Well at least we have some understanding but I will say this. Sometimes things do not fit into neat little packages and try too hard and you may destroy what you are trying to preserve.

With regards to men, which is what we are discussing. Yes there are plenty of 'Arabs' I know who do not think men should be dancing. These same men view female dancers as sex objects and do not know how to view a man.

Other 'Arabs' I know, particularly women, do not want Western women doing this dance and do not feel it is their place to do it either. They can get quite passionate about this believe me.
Foreign dancers also had trouble in Cairo a few years back, until people realised how itegral they had become to the local and global scene. The same can happen for men too as I have pointed out.
I was VERY surprised how many people now know who Tito is (from Sharm) and that number will grow daily. People talk and the media is bringing it to the attention of the people.

cathy

Interesting. I see differences between beledi, Shaabi, Oriental, and Saidi to be sure, but I also see the overlaps of them all being Middle Eastern in both movement AND feeling, as distinct from Western dances. Sometimes earlier in my progress as a student I felt a longing for more “neat little packages” and distinctness as in “This is red. This is blue. There is no purple” ….but let’s face it, there are lots of shades of purple and pretending otherwise is not going to make things any easier.

Thank you for saying this! It is what I suspected but of course not knowing many Arabs and never having been to the Middle East (yet) I felt I had no evidence to justify the claim.

Interesting! And as an aside, I must say it’s amazing so many people actually persevere in learning and doing this dance, what with so much prejudice against it in so many different directions.

I really hope I get to see him.

And Tarik—I have no objection to an occasional all-male show. I would go to see it. I have seen quite a few all-female shows of course, but I assume they were all that way by chance. If there were a show (or a class) billed as “only women allowed to perform” that would kinda bug me. I went to a women’s college and I think given sexism in our society it is appropriate to have women’s colleges, but not all- male colleges. Same thing in reverse with dance shows, in my own personal opinion. If the state of dance changed such that men were taking over (not too likely in our lifetime!) with a large majority of all the top stars being men, all the sought-after teachers being men, a majority of students being men (yeah, right!) then I would think all-male shows would then become inappropriate. Just like if women suddenly gained a large majority of seats in Congress, Supreme court, fortune 500 CEO spots, governorships, sports endorsement contracts, and so forth, I would think the time would be ripe for women’s colleges to admit men. Again, I’m betting against it in our lifetime…..Cathy

Marya

Zorba,

I absolutely disagree that culture is ultimately meaningless. I lived in the Dominican Republic for three years and while there were parts of the culture that irked me there were parts that were admirable.

Culture is what makes us who we are, and learning about other cultures and respecting them helps to make us better people. There are many aspects of my own culture that irk me too and many that are admirable, but culture is a living organism and is subject to change every generation, however certain aspects remain.

English is my first language, it carries with it an understanding of the world that is different from a Spanish speaker. My favorite example is if I drop a pencil in English it is an action that I did, I am the one who dropped it. In Spanish, the pencil drops itself, I as the holder of the pencil had nothing to do with it. "Se me cayo" (it fell from me) versus "I dropped it". Subtle things like that are ingrained in us because of language. (Sorry, I can't figure out how to get the orthographic symbols into the Spanish, I think there should be an accent over the o)

There are many, many, examples like this, the way people walk and carry their body is part of our culture. After three years in the DR I could spot someone from the US by the way they walked. Culture is a part of us, even your rebellion against the confines of culture is part of the culture of the US.

Sure, ultimately we are all humans, and share certain traits, but the creativity and sheer joy and love that are expressed in a myriad of ways by different cultures is a precious jewel to be treasured.

I credit my time in the Dominican Republic with starting me on my path as a dancer. Dance and music are an integral part of the culture of The DR and I saw how important they can be to people and how dance enriched their lives, and although I am not studying Merengue, the experience and dance within the community was an important lesson for me.

Marya

Marya

Zorba,

I have a MS degree in botany, I love science, I used to agree with you concerning Ultimate Reality, then I lived in the Dominican Republic.

There was no escaping that reality was different for them than it was for me. And I am not just talking about perception here. And there was no denying that they shaped their reality.

Zorba, even atoms are subject to mental and emotional forces, I suspect you will snort when you read that, but even in books about science that I have read I have seen this. The disciplines of science, physics,etc are all interpretations, reality shape-shifts, what we think is reality today will be laughed at in the future when a few more paradigms have shifted.

Marya

karena

To answer Tarik's q - yes to positive discrimination, for whatever minority is disadvantaged in that situation. So yes to all male dance shows. I think due to the culture I am in (sorry can't resist ), the white male is not usually disadvantaged. Therefore it seems odd and maybe gets adverse reactions, including from people who might normally support positive discrimination. But from my basic principles, positive discrimination is justified, therefore male dance shows are justified. However, that said I personally wouldn't expend much energy on it, as white men are usually soooo advantaged, that I would place my energy elsewhere.

And Marya I agree. It really interests me, as I think most of the really heated discussion on here come down to a clash of theory. The postitivists vs the post modernists, and of course all of Cathy's purples in between. And re your language example, a guy at uni was telling me the other day about how he and his supervisor usually speak English where we only have one 'you'. He had cause to speak to him in Spanish and as totally thrown as there are 3 'you'. So which should he use? - the really formal, the friendly. So tricky as the relationship had evolved without that language aspect. He was relating it to the less hierarchical UK uni system vis a vis the continent, and whether this had anything to do with this linguistic method of formality.

__________________
"Nothing is black and white, it's all shades of grey" Me

Zorba

Of course - because 99.999999% of people are incapable of recognizing ULTIMATE REALITY from RELATIVISTIC REALITY.
Absolutely true. Which comes under the heading of "people make their own reality". I make mine, you make yours, etc. I just use my own ruleset - as it has meaning to me - as opposed to culture - which does not. Its all relative. The universe as a whole is subject to "mental and emotional forces" - which really has nothing to do with ULTIMATE REALITY, other than it *IS* an ULTIMATE REALITY (if that makes sense).

I am in no way suggesting that I totally ignore culture - it would be quite difficult, if not impossible to do so (meaningless or not). I do however, choose to ignore certain chunks of it which get in the way of my personal vision of life, the dance, and myself. As it *is* meaningless in the ultimate sense, I'm not hurting the universe by doing so. Blah, blah, blah.

As for my rebelling against culture being part of (the American) culture - not really. Males in particular are herd animals - I'm utterly amazed at how EXTREMELY uncomfortable males are at the SLIGHTEST deviation from the "male norm". I'm so far off the charts for them that most will never grok. A few do (in time), but they themselves wouldn't dare. "Rebellion" in particular is railed against, legislated against, peer pressured against, and all around discouraged in our culture. "Everyone else does it this way" is used as legal precedent, and excuses to quash any dissent. Conformity at any cost.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Zorba

This doesn't bother me. I'm just "another dancer". The way it should be.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."