Aisha Azar

Dear Jen,

Not according to most of the Arabs I know. Shaabi is done by the people and is not a form of professional entertainment. Also, there are few shaabi dancers who can equal the skill of professional dancers on a technical level. Mark Basyouni, my Alexandrian freind, is one of those who can, though there is still a rawness to his dance that is incredibly sexy!! But usually the style is not as complex, just as Beledi is not usually as complex. The music used for Shaabi and Beledi, for one thing, does not generally allow for the same kind of emotional content as does a full raqs sharghi , with different sections and emotional passages, etc. Often we will see some crossover in movement and feeling within the belly dance routine, but it is mostly much more complex in general than either shaabi or beledi


I have found that it depends on what they are doing. To me, a male debke is not feminine, or takhtib, or Ardeh, or male versions of Saidi, or any of the masculine essence based dances. However, you get a guy making fun of the girls out on the dance floor and they sometimes do have a feminine essence because they see belly dance as feminine. It is often the case that the guys will mimic the girls when they dance for fun. I have seen it happen often.


This clip does not do Mark justice. He is an amazing dancer who deserves to be seen in person, so if the chance ever arises, try to be there!!




I did not see your statements or mine as anything against anyone's sexuality. I think we made honest comments that had more to do with what Khaled brings to the stage as opposed to dissing his sexuality.


I am also a child of the 60s and I find that it has led me to be open and real about my own sexuality and others', without being judgemental about it. I find it oppressive when we try to act as if it all is just not there!




But, did you honestly feel that Khaled's dance had any female signifiers? He looked gay and not female to me. There is a huge difference, but it is easy to buy into the myth that gay men are sometimes female. More often, men who are over the top femme are a parody of female, not truly female. This is something some gay men do. I have no issue with it but I do hate it when people confuse it with being feminine, which it is not. Again, witness the difference between Mark's and Khaled's dancing.


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Hmm, I don't if it seems real and from the soul, which is my problem with Khaled. It has nothing to do with his "girliness", but his lack of emotional connection and his concentration on his "hot moves".

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

I've seen both Khaled and MArk dance in person. In fact MArk and I will both be in a show featuring only male dancers in a few weeks for Kaieshi of Belly Queen.

Looking at the clip of Khalid does not do him justice. He is a much better dancer than what is shown there. As far as what is considered gay looking or not. It's rather subjective. I think most people would say they both look gay in the way they costumes and their general feeling. There are people who think my dancing looks gay. It's a perception based on the perspective of the observer.

I've seen guys in Egypt who from my cultural perspective look very gay when they dance, but the Egyptians who were around me didn't think so, (although some did). I guess it's just one of those things, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it depends on the individual.

Caroline_afifi

A show with lots of male dancers will be good because it is a chance to get all the vibes as with female shows. I said earlier that I thought Tito's dance in this clip was a bit girly and said it reminded me of Randa. Because i did this comparison, it became girly. Randa is a strong dancer and not 'over girly' so I guess that makes Tito a strong dancer too.
I take back what i said.
I really like Shafeek too. There is something about his spirit when he dances and his smile is just lovely.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,
A show with lots of male dancers is fine. A show with only male dancers is another matter. I did not think Tito looked much like Randa, but I do see your point in that they seem to use similar directional changes and both have a lot of tight, intense movements. Both have feminine essence, but yeah, neither one is overly "girly". Their basic stance is sure different in that she is sort of more upright and even forward of center, while he is arch backed for his basic way of making movement happen. I love Randa and it was probably my only real disappointment that I did not get to see her perform when I was in Cairo.
Regards,
A'isha


PS: I thought I would do an addendum. While I was out walking with Una, my German Shepherd who is quite the Girl in her own right, I was trying to think of even female Egyptian dancers who are "girly" . While I see plenty of feminine essence in the dances of many of them, the only one who expressed that through being girly that I could come up with, was Dina in her younger days. MAYBE Lynn and Lyss and maybe Tahia Carioca at some times, but not always. Most of them seem to tap into being women as opposed to being girls. Does anyone have any other candidates for "girly" dancers from Egypt? I am just drawing pretty much of a blank.

Caroline_afifi

With regards to Tito and randa, I agree with your observations but there was also an element of de ja vu for me when i saw it. Although there are lots which are different, there was something about it that strongly reminded me of Randa. I dont usually get this when I see him at all.

I feel an all male show will be interesting to watch. I think the absence of women will make the styles and contrast much clearer. when a man dances after six women, everyone sits up. I think it will be much more focused on the ability rather than the novelty.

It also depends on how it is billed and what the show is all about. I know nothing about it really.

Caroline_afifi

I was just thinking exactly the same thing!

Tarik Sultan

You know they do watch each other and take bits and pieces that they like to integrate into their own shows. I myself have done this with Sohair Zaki, Fifi Abdo, Hanadi, Mona Said, Nadia Hamdi, Morocco and even Tito. So I wouldn't be surprised that he's done the same. I know he's borrowed from me, and I know Khaled has borrowed from him. Its a natural thing we all do. Rand herself has borrowed heavily from Dina. In fact, that was the problem I initially had with her. She spent so much time being Dina there was nothing of her in her dance. Lately she has developed a style that is more uniquely her own. I like her much better now than when I first saw her.

I also agree with you about the benefits of an all male show in that it takes away the element of novelty and so you can focus on the actual merits of the individual performers. The other thing is that people can see the great variety of personalities and interpretations between one male dancer and the next. Mark and I are going to both be dancing in an all male show very soon. We are both men, but we have very different energies and personas. Part of the problem with most shows is that the male dancer is so rare that people see one guy and think that's what all male dancers are like. This gives them the opportunity to understand that each one of us are different and we should be judged as individuals and not have the burden of trying to represent ALL male dancer.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,

In any case, I have stated a lot of reasons why it is not good in another part of the forum, and people can take or leave them, but I sure hope they at least give it some thought.

Regards,
A'isha

jenc

I really don't understand how someone who is mimicking can have feminine essence. when I thought that what you were talking about was men being in touch with their feminine side, I could agree, although I would also agree with Tariq that this "feminity" is an essential part of true masculinity. This seemed to me to be as is often the case with one of the long arguments between you to be more about terminology and a way of looking at the same things.

If you are talking about making fun, then you are talking about using female signifiers in a self-conscious and parodic way. This is definately NOT feminine essence. If something is an essence, it surely cannot be counterfeited.

also when i asked you whether other male dancers had feminine essence, i was not necessarily thinking about ME dance. I was thinking about ballet dancers, who also display a lot of grace.

Aisha Azar

Dear Jen,


Well, I can say that grace and essence are not the same thing. I guess I would have to go and see a ballet or other dance where males are taking on traditional female roles and see what I think. I am not a trained ballerina. I only have training in Middle Eastern and North African dance, each of which has its own soul and personality, often based in male or female essence. I may not even know HOW to really look at and see gender based essence in dance forms other than from those regions. I costumed dancers in other dance forms for years, but did not think much about feminine or masculine essence, as much as I did roles that various individuals were playing.
Regards,
A'isha