Tito - Page 7

Caroline_afifi · 05-11-2008, 06:56 PM

Ha ha.. how did floorwork end up here? I just saw this by chance!

No, I dont think it was a slave thing. I asked my husband if he has ever seen floorwork during belly dance growing up in Cairo. He thought for a while and said 'only in the context of movies and slave girls in the market' Sorry, I thought it was clear).
Wherever it comes from I still find it cringy.

I still dont get this amcab thing. It is really confusing!!

Tito doing Ya helwa Sabah was a shock to me and I found it a bit girly.
He looked like he was imitating Randa in parts too.

(and my typos and spellings are 10 times more ridiculous or creative than Tariks!!)

Morocco · 05-11-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Ha ha.. how did floorwork end up here? I just saw this by chance!

No, I dont think it was a slave thing. I asked my husband if he has ever seen floorwork during belly dance growing up in Cairo. He thought for a while and said 'only in the context of movies and slave girls in the market' Sorry, I thought it was clear).
Wherever it comes from I still find it cringy.

Well, I explained THAT - he wouldn't've because he was born AFTER 1954, BUT you can see Negwa Fouad doing some in her 1979 "Sitt El Hosni" show, because she was depicting a woman/ dancer from the Ottoman era ...

Quote:

I still dont get this amcab thing. It is really confusing!!

Neither do I, since the whoie "cabaret" appellation was coined as a deliberate putdown to those of us who wore beads & sequins by the fantasist inventor of the early "California Tribal" mish-mash, who was trying to convince others that her injurious "technique" was "authentic" & what the real "tribes" "over there" did.

(NOT to be confused with American Tribal, which is a genre of its own & the ATS & Fusion folk I know, respect & love never claim their dance is "authentic"/ from "over there"!)

Quote:

Tito doing Ya helwa Sabah was a shock to me and I found it a bit girly.

He looked like he was imitating Randa in parts too.

Did it ever occur to you that she might've been imitating Tito?

Quote:

(and my typos and spellings are 10 times more ridiculous or creative than Tariks!!)

Get over it! It was a JOKE - he brought it up himself & if *I* can't rib him, who can?!?

In fact, MY typos are the worst because I deliberately never learned to type in high school - didn't want to be "steered" into being a secretary because I'm female (it was the 1950s!!!)

God certainly has a weird sense of humor, 'cause here I am, more than 50 years lzter, typing away 24/7/365 on this internet!!!

See ya at Raks Britannia,
Morocco

lizaj · 05-12-2008, 12:01 AM

Aisha Azar wrote:

I do see him as being a gay dancer as opposed to being a feminine one. Mark Balahadia gives off a vibe of feminine essence and I do not even think about the nature of his sexuality when he is on stage, where as with Khaled, I am constantly aware that he is gay. It is as if, with Mark it is not an issue but with Khaled, it is....????

How come you are so sure that Khaled is gay?
Sorry to be late into the discussion. been rather busy but since you are discussing a dancer and teacher I rever, why are you so keen to label.
Not that I think that his sexuality matters but you know for a fact do you?

lizaj · 05-12-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

Wow i was going to say that I want to dance like Tito, and then sometines I think no he's dancing like a man. But I do want that authentic feel. I don't want to dance like Khaled even though he's more feiminine in style. Khaled reminds me of why I feel uncomfortable with some trannies. I see a lot of mistaking feminine "business" as feminity. That is I haven't worn makeup and heeled shose for 40 years. I feel as though I'm in drag when I do. I'm not a feminine woman I'm a woman and secure enough in myself to have decided I don't need trappings to remind me of who I am.
until I started to buy hip belts and other sparklies :lol.

What's with the trannies? What has that to do with Khaled?

I am really am puzzled by all this discussion of sexuality and dancers. A dancer is either a good dancer or not so good. S/he can be tecnically good, S/he can be not so technically good but entertaining for other reasons eg image, personality, effort.
Khaled is both a good dancer and a good entertainer. I do wish people would start to dismiss the gender thing and just enjoy. It's like styles..get over it..and enjoy good dancing.
In my heart I do feel this dance comes more naturally to women as a danse orientale performance but there are men ( those discussed) who pleasing to watch and there has always been those most certainly able to teach it!

Aisha Azar · 05-12-2008, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

Aisha Azar wrote:

I do see him as being a gay dancer as opposed to being a feminine one. Mark Balahadia gives off a vibe of feminine essence and I do not even think about the nature of his sexuality when he is on stage, where as with Khaled, I am constantly aware that he is gay. It is as if, with Mark it is not an issue but with Khaled, it is....????

How come you are so sure that Khaled is gay?
Sorry to be late into the discussion. been rather busy but since you are discussing a dancer and teacher I rever, why are you so keen to label.
Not that I think that his sexuality matters but you know for a fact do you?

Dear Lizaj,
I am, as you put it, keen to label because it helps us to define what we are talking about. All people use labels for this reason and then there are those who use them for more destructive purposes as well, which is not my intention. I don't think I would have to be told, though I heard it from someone who is in a position to know that he is gay....but of course I have no first hand knowledge. I think that there is nothing wrong with revering someone who is gay, or straight if you want to. I am also not the least bit prejudiced against gay or straight dancers, or male of female or any other sexual choice. The point was that we were discussing the energy that he exudes while dancing, and that is definitively gay as opposed to feminine. Ask the gay man of your choice if you have any doubts. His sexual preferences are not what bothers me about his dancing, as I have said.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 05-12-2008, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

Wow i was going to say that I want to dance like Tito, and then sometines I think no he's dancing like a man. But I do want that authentic feel. I don't want to dance like Khaled even though he's more feiminine in style. Khaled reminds me of why I feel uncomfortable with some trannies. I see a lot of mistaking feminine "business" as feminity. That is I haven't worn makeup and heeled shose for 40 years. I feel as though I'm in drag when I do. I'm not a feminine woman I'm a woman and secure enough in myself to have decided I don't need trappings to remind me of who I am.
until I started to buy hip belts and other sparklies :lol.

Tito's dancing looks like a man because he is. The thing about this dance is you have to be totally comfortable with yourself in order for your personal spirit to express itself through your movements. When a woman dances and is in this zone all that she is expresses itself through her dance. Her natural femininity/female essence will come through. A man on the other hand when he is in that zone will experience the same thing. Unless he is effeminate in nature, he will project a male essence. No matter how delicate Tito may get at times, to quote Miss Swan: "HE LOOKA LIKE A MAN". Therefore, you can work to express the same type of charisma, dynamic energy, musical interpretation but you will not look like a guy when you dance. What will come across will be the truth of who and what you are.

Tarik Sultan · 05-12-2008, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morocco

Dammit, I was NOT gonna post.

Disclaimers here: Aisha ia a longtime friend who I love & respect & when we seem to disagree, it is almost always based on our specific interpretations of certain words & what they mean to us two. Including "feminine essence" ... BUT I totally understand where she's coming from & what it means to her. Ergo no problem.

Tarik is an unindicted co-conspirator, son, friend, partner, a fabulous dancer, student the joy of my life & the bane of my existence. I love it when he uses his innate intelligence.

So I've been enjoying some of their back & forths. (He's NEVER admitted to ME when he's being a childish snot. I'm jealous!)
BACK TO THE BOOK!!
Morocco

Mommie Dearest:

You know that I am a very patient and caring individual. That I am not an ego case and I have no personal agendas. (if I did, I'd have more of a career, after all, you were the one who dragged me into teaching kicking and screaming), that I do listen to and respect other people's points of view and opinions even if they differ from my own. After all, we don't always see eye to eye on everything, but I can listen and understand why you feel the way you do. You also know that I have a very long and slow burning fuse, even in cases where people's behavior towards me is way out of line. It takes a lot for me to go off on someone. You also know that when I do start to get snotty it's because of frustration when I've tried over and over and over again to reach someone and it just goes nowhere. And that if I bust loose on someone, its because of an accumulation of stuff. You also know that I don't need people to agree with me on every point and that quite often I believe that there are many different points of view on a subject and that they can all be valid.

Okay I guess I should say something that relates to the thread shouldn't I?

KHalid is a very good dancer but his costuming needs an extreme makover! Honestly, they don't flatter his body at all and because of that I think they are distracting and take away from the ability to really enjoy his dance.

P.S: I'll send you the damn schedule soon. I spent all day cooking and cleaning, (no one died) and this is all I have the brain power left to do.

taheya · 05-12-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

What's with the trannies? What has that to do with Khaled?

I am really am puzzled by all this discussion of sexuality and dancers. A dancer is either a good dancer or not so good. S/he can be tecnically good, S/he can be not so technically good but entertaining for other reasons eg image, personality, effort.
Khaled is both a good dancer and a good entertainer. I do wish people would start to dismiss the gender thing and just enjoy. It's like styles..get over it..and enjoy good dancing.
In my heart I do feel this dance comes more naturally to women as a danse orientale performance but there are men ( those discussed) who pleasing to watch and there has always been those most certainly able to teach it!

Jenc and Aisha labelling someones dance style as either gay or straight is actually ridiculous and offensive. People have their own dance styles and I absolutely agree with Liz on this, bringing somebody's sexuality into it is totally irrelevent and another example of how men's oreintal dance is oppressed. Do we have female dancers' sexuality brought into question? I dont think so. Some dancers may be more effeminate or masculine but this is different to describing them as gay or straight!!

jenc · 05-12-2008, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Jen,
This "essence" thing is hard to grasp and if I remember correctly, you are a fairly new dancer. You may have a different understanding of it later, or you may not. I can think of four men, right off the top of my head, who are secure enough in their dancing and their masculinity to acknowledge feminine essence as a necessary element in the dance. They value this essence as an intrinsic part of the dance and are able to bring forth who they are in the spirit and feeling of the dance rather than trying to change the dance to meet their needs. I feel that Tito does this very well also. I do not care for Khaled's raqs sharghi either and it appears to me that he is one of those who does the opposite. It seems like it is more about Khaled than about the dance, and I never care for that in either a male or female performer. Most Egyptian females seem to be able to move into the dance and even when they are huge ego freaks, they still seem to have a depth of attachment to the dance itself. With some Egyptian males it seems to come off as "Watch how well I can do this hot move", instead of an understanding of the dance as a holistic process in which something deeper and more in touch with the culture is expressed. And this seems to be more common among both males and females in the West, when they are detached culturally.
I talked at some length with a friend at a party last night. I THINK we might have come to some agreement about him teaching dance at a seminar for me in the future. I am SO excited about it! He is from Alexandria and is a wonderful dancer!! One of his most implicit comments is that he wants me to make sure NOT to advertise that he will be teaching belly dance, because he sees himself as a shaabi dancer, which he sees as for both genders, while in his mind, belly dance is a feminine dance, meant for women.
Regards,
A'isha

Is Shaabi not also BD?
Also do you see men doing other forms of dance as exhibiting feminine essence?
Posting Mark Bahladia as he has now been mentioned several times. He's not a masculine dancer, but ovely dancer.

PS I am sorry to give the impression that I have anything against anyone's sexuality. I was just being honest that I find it initially disconcerting when a man is more "feminine" than me because he is adoppting feminine signifiers that I have rejected as being oppressive. (Yes I am a child of the 60s) To be honest it then leads to my concluding that they can do it if they want to, it's still not for me. My sister on the other hand has always been convinced that I am making myself "dowdy and flat-chested" by not using make-up etc.
I was just wondering aloud about female signifiers. What if they have nothing at all to do with actual femininity. Probably making this worse - but it's just semantics. Khaled's dancing is growing on me by the way, but it is still not my style.
PPS I dislike 'girly' dancing in men and women

Caroline_afifi · 05-12-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morocco

Well, I explained THAT - he wouldn't've because he was born AFTER 1954, BUT you can see Negwa Fouad doing some in her 1979 "Sitt El Hosni" show, because she was depicting a woman/ dancer from the Ottoman era ...

Neither do I, since the whoie "cabaret" appellation was coined as a deliberate putdown to those of us who wore beads & sequins by the fantasist inventor of the early "California Tribal" mish-mash, who was trying to convince others that her injurious "technique" was "authentic" & what the real "tribes" "over there" did.

(NOT to be confused with American Tribal, which is a genre of its own & the ATS & Fusion folk I know, respect & love never claim their dance is "authentic"/ from "over there"!)

Did it ever occur to you that she might've been imitating Tito?

Get over it! It was a JOKE - he brought it up himself & if *I* can't rib him, who can?!?

In fact, MY typos are the worst because I deliberately never learned to type in high school - didn't want to be "steered" into being a secretary because I'm female (it was the 1950s!!!)

God certainly has a weird sense of humor, 'cause here I am, more than 50 years lzter, typing away 24/7/365 on this internet!!!

See ya at Raks Britannia,
Morocco

I was not defending Tarik, I was joining him

(I got the JOKE, I usually do even when its not funny)
Randa imitate Tito?.. mmm I will ask her next time I see her

That Tribal and Am Cab stuff sounds a bit dodgy. How can someone have the power to do that? this is a study in itself.

05-11-2008, 06:56 PM	#61 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,285	Ha ha.. how did floorwork end up here? I just saw this by chance! No, I dont think it was a slave thing. I asked my husband if he has ever seen floorwork during belly dance growing up in Cairo. He thought for a while and said 'only in the context of movies and slave girls in the market' Sorry, I thought it was clear). Wherever it comes from I still find it cringy. I still dont get this amcab thing. It is really confusing!! Tito doing Ya helwa Sabah was a shock to me and I found it a bit girly. He looked like he was imitating Randa in parts too. (and my typos and spellings are 10 times more ridiculous or creative than Tariks!!) Last edited by Caroline_afifi; 05-11-2008 at 07:02 PM.

05-12-2008, 12:01 AM	#63 (permalink)
lizaj Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,240	Aisha Azar wrote: I do see him as being a gay dancer as opposed to being a feminine one. Mark Balahadia gives off a vibe of feminine essence and I do not even think about the nature of his sexuality when he is on stage, where as with Khaled, I am constantly aware that he is gay. It is as if, with Mark it is not an issue but with Khaled, it is....???? How come you are so sure that Khaled is gay? Sorry to be late into the discussion. been rather busy but since you are discussing a dancer and teacher I rever, why are you so keen to label. Not that I think that his sexuality matters but you know for a fact do you?