Tito - Page 6

jenc · 05-11-2008, 10:07 AM

Just rewatched clip to look for feminine essence. didn't see anything of that, but saw a definate masculine essence.............(sigh!!). Seriously, I saw a man displaying complete confidence in his self and in his body. If this means that he is in touch with his feminine side, or that he is in touch with a tenderness that is inherent in true masculinity, isn't this intrinsically the same thing.
I didn't like the Khaled. I've tried looking at it to see if I would like it done by a woman and I'm not sure. How can I say his arms are too graceful???? I THINK I would say that it's a little too balletic for me, I prefer a little more direct energy, but I admit I could be justifying myself

Aniseteph · 05-11-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Sometimes I think if one more dancer pops one more muscle at me I am going to shriek like the Red Queen.

I wish I was a cartoonist - "Shanazel sees one pop too many". EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!

(that'd show them

)

Reen.Blom · 05-11-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

I wish I was a cartoonist - "Shanazel sees one pop too many". EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!

(that'd show them

)

YOu made me laugh so much!!!!!

Tarik Sultan · 05-11-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

Just rewatched clip to look for feminine essence. didn't see anything of that, but saw a definate masculine essence.............(sigh!!). Seriously, I saw a man displaying complete confidence in his self and in his body. If this means that he is in touch with his feminine side, or that he is in touch with a tenderness that is inherent in true masculinity, isn't this intrinsically the same thing.
I didn't like the Khaled. I've tried looking at it to see if I would like it done by a woman and I'm not sure. How can I say his arms are too graceful???? I THINK I would say that it's a little too balletic for me, I prefer a little more direct energy, but I admit I could be justifying myself

Well as I've said in the past on several occasions, its a matter of semantics. People have different ways of describing the same concepts and what is language anyway except a set of verbal symbols that represent thoughts and feelings. It's like verbal hieroglyphics. Not to pick up the hatchet I killed the cow with again, but I've described masculine and feminine energies as not necessarily being linked to manliness or womanliness.

I prefer the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. Both men and women have Yin and Yang energies. We need it to be balanced individuals. A man cannot be an emotionally healthy individual if he's only operating from the aggressive energies alone. It has to be balance with the nurturing loving type of energy as well. On the other hand, women have to be balanced with their assertive energies as well, even in traditional gender roles. For example to raise children you need the nurturing loving energy but it must be balanced with the assertive energy in order to instill discipline to advocate for those children or to protect them.

When I look at Raks Baladi and Oriental dance as a whole I see a blending of these energies. It is bold and assertive but at the same time loving and gentle. I think it represents the blending of our two sides rather than one or the other dominating. Many traditional men's folk dances don't have this balance to them. They either reflect traditional men's gender roles or martial skills, or they focus only on the aggressive side only. For example Tahktyb or many types of Debkahs. Now in real life people will move back and forth between dances and energies without thought. So in Egypt a guy will start doing a Raks al Assaya with a really aggressive energy, and then as soon as the music changes, tie scarf around his hips and express a more gentle playful energy. Or a guy might be doing a really vigorous Debkah then brake away from the line and do a Baladi while the line dances around him.

I think we tend to over analyze things and attempt to put things in neat little boxes. The problem is in real life, things don't come in neat little boxes. It's more like the edges are smooshed and the contents from one overlap and mingle with the contents of the other to a degree. And I think you've described Tito perfectly in these terms.

So if people want to call that feminine energy, fine. The only thing that I have tried to point out is that it's not the same thing as being womanly, but unfortunately in the minds of most people expressing "feminine energy" and being womanly are two different things. Perhaps if I hadn't encountered so many people in the past who used the term "feminine" to mean womanly or to insinuate effeminicy, (sp?) in men who do this dance or cast aspersions on their sexuality and thus an excuse to exclude men from the dance, I wouldn't mind.

Aisha Azar · 05-11-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

Just rewatched clip to look for feminine essence. didn't see anything of that, but saw a definate masculine essence.............(sigh!!). Seriously, I saw a man displaying complete confidence in his self and in his body. If this means that he is in touch with his feminine side, or that he is in touch with a tenderness that is inherent in true masculinity, isn't this intrinsically the same thing.
I didn't like the Khaled. I've tried looking at it to see if I would like it done by a woman and I'm not sure. How can I say his arms are too graceful???? I THINK I would say that it's a little too balletic for me, I prefer a little more direct energy, but I admit I could be justifying myself

Dear Jen,
This "essence" thing is hard to grasp and if I remember correctly, you are a fairly new dancer. You may have a different understanding of it later, or you may not. I can think of four men, right off the top of my head, who are secure enough in their dancing and their masculinity to acknowledge feminine essence as a necessary element in the dance. They value this essence as an intrinsic part of the dance and are able to bring forth who they are in the spirit and feeling of the dance rather than trying to change the dance to meet their needs. I feel that Tito does this very well also. I do not care for Khaled's raqs sharghi either and it appears to me that he is one of those who does the opposite. It seems like it is more about Khaled than about the dance, and I never care for that in either a male or female performer. Most Egyptian females seem to be able to move into the dance and even when they are huge ego freaks, they still seem to have a depth of attachment to the dance itself. With some Egyptian males it seems to come off as "Watch how well I can do this hot move", instead of an understanding of the dance as a holistic process in which something deeper and more in touch with the culture is expressed. And this seems to be more common among both males and females in the West, when they are detached culturally.
I talked at some length with a friend at a party last night. I THINK we might have come to some agreement about him teaching dance at a seminar for me in the future. I am SO excited about it! He is from Alexandria and is a wonderful dancer!! One of his most implicit comments is that he wants me to make sure NOT to advertise that he will be teaching belly dance, because he sees himself as a shaabi dancer, which he sees as for both genders, while in his mind, belly dance is a feminine dance, meant for women.
Regards,
A'isha

Morocco · 05-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Dammit, I was NOT gonna post.

Disclaimers here: Aisha ia a longtime friend who I love & respect & when we seem to disagree, it is almost always based on our specific interpretations of certain words & what they mean to us two. Including "feminine essence" ... BUT I totally understand where she's coming from & what it means to her. Ergo no problem.

Tarik is an unindicted co-conspirator, son, friend, partner, a fabulous dancer, student the joy of my life & the bane of my existence. I love it when he uses his innate intelligence.

So I've been enjoying some of their back & forths. (He's NEVER admitted to ME when he's being a childish snot. I'm jealous!)

NOW to the case in point, understanding that I know & very much appreciate all the concerned male dancers, Egyptian & non:

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I do see him as being a gay dancer as opposed to being a feminine one. Mark Balahadia gives off a vibe of feminine essence and I do not even think about the nature of his sexuality when he is on stage, where as with Khaled, I am constantly aware that he is gay. It is as if, with Mark it is not an issue but with Khaled, it is....????

I totally agree with this & especially the last sentence & AA may have hit THIS nail right on the head.

I think that Mark is totally comfortable with who/what he is & has probably been able to "be himself" almost his entire life - in fact the Thais have a word for it - what they call the "third sex": katoe - men who are born with female souls.

Khaled, on the other hand, has only relatively recently left a country where he could NOT openly be himself & may very well be like a sailor on shore leave after a very long time at sea or a kid in a candy shop.

(Only theorizing here...)

BACK TO THE BOOK!!
Morocco

Morocco · 05-11-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Well as I've said in the past on several occasions, its a matter of semantics. People have different ways of describing the same concepts and what is language anyway except a set of verbal symbols that represent thoughts and feelings. It's like verbal hieroglyphics. Not to pick up the hatchet I killed the cow with again, but I've described masculine and feminine energies as not necessarily being linked to manliness or womanliness.

I prefer the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. Both men and women have Yin and Yang energies. We need it to be balanced individuals. A man cannot be an emotionally healthy individual if he's only operating from the aggressive energies alone. It has to be balance with the nurturing loving type of energy as well. On the other hand, women have to be balanced with their assertive energies as well, even in traditional gender roles. For example to raise children you need the nurturing loving energy but it must be balanced with the assertive energy in order to instill discipline to advocate for those children or to protect them.

When I look at Raks Baladi and Oriental dance as a whole I see a blending of these energies. It is bold and assertive but at the same time loving and gentle. I think it represents the blending of our two sides rather than one or the other dominating. Many traditional men's folk dances don't have this balance to them. They either reflect traditional men's gender roles or martial skills, or they focus only on the aggressive side only. For example Tahktyb or many types of Debkahs. Now in real life people will move back and forth between dances and energies without thought. So in Egypt a guy will start doing a Raks al Assaya with a really aggressive energy, and then as soon as the music changes, tie scarf around his hips and express a more gentle playful energy. Or a guy might be doing a really vigorous Debkah then brake away from the line and do a Baladi while the line dances around him.

I think we tend to over analyze things and attempt to put things in neat little boxes. The problem is in real life, things don't come in neat little boxes. It's more like the edges are smooshed and the contents from one overlap and mingle with the contents of the other to a degree. And I think you've described Tito perfectly in these terms.

So if people want to call that feminine energy, fine. The only thing that I have tried to point out is that it's not the same thing as being womanly, but unfortunately in the minds of most people expressing "feminine energy" and being womanly are two different things. Perhaps if I hadn't encountered so many people in the past who used the term "feminine" to mean womanly or to insinuate effeminicy, (sp?) in men who do this dance or cast aspersions on their sexuality and thus an excuse to exclude men from the dance, I wouldn't mind.

Total agreement, but your spelling sucks. It's break - "brake" is what you use to stop a car. Effeminacy.

It's YOUR fault the book isn't finished yet.

Aunt rocky
a/k/a "mom"
IT'S MOTHERS DAY!
Now send me your goddamned schedule & don't b.s. me that you have no time.

Morocco · 05-11-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danceswithblades

As a newbie dancer (but a fan for more than 3 decades) I hope you all can find a way to be at peace with your differences. As a longtime fan, I have only one comment: whatever your gender essence, Dina-butt must go!!! There is nothing authentic about it; it was originally a mildly comic move that took on a life of its own. Belongs in the Museum of Ill-conceived Choreograpy, along with steamy floor routines, etc.

Morocco here: Total agreement with that re Dina's "Kiss My A**" butt-in-the-air move, originally done to "dis" the goofballs in the audience, who were making nasty remarks that she heard loud & clear.

Just because an Egyptian did something/ anything in a dance does NOT mean it should be automatically imitated/ taught. Dandash's great "armpit grab" being another example. (Got a great opera story that's a parallel!)

Quote:

Blades: (And no, floor work did not originate in the slave markets of olden time; female slaves were rape victims and not competitors for male attention. Sorry, Carolyn. Think American travelling circus, the origin of a lot of Amcab)

Morocco: YO! Blades! Agreement re "slave girls" & that sickola fantasy, but STOP blaming everything on "Amcab", which is a totally b.s. incorrect term to begin with.

"Floorwork" (wrote an article about it in 1976 or so for the original Habibi - it will be in The Book) was an optional part of Oriental dance, but was OUTLAWED in Egypt (& only in Egypt) in 1954, when Raks Sharki was REINSTATED after hav ing been banned in public performances for about two years.

Quote:

Blades: Apologies for my bluntness: you are all well-known teachers and I am nobody in the world of dance, but I am a linguist and historian in my own right.

S'OK - blunt is my middle name. I'm a Noo Yawka.

Aunt Rocky

Aisha Azar · 05-11-2008, 04:17 PM

[quote=Morocco;73165]Dammit, I was NOT gonna post.

Disclaimers here: Aisha ia a longtime friend who I love & respect & when we seem to disagree, it is almost always based on our specific interpretations of certain words & what they mean to us two. Including "feminine essence" ... BUT I totally understand where she's coming from & what it means to her. Ergo no problem.

Dearest M.
I feel the same. I especially feel that when we disagree, you do not call my character into question, but stick steadfastly to the subject at hand, and most importantly, that you listen and try to really, really hear and understand what I am trying to say instead of putting up a wall of resistance between us. I thank you for that.
Bunches of love,
AA

jenc · 05-11-2008, 06:40 PM

Wow i was going to say that I want to dance like Tito, and then sometines I think no he's dancing like a man. But I do want that authentic feel. I don't want to dance like Khaled even though he's more feiminine in style. Khaled reminds me of why I feel uncomfortable with some trannies. I see a lot of mistaking feminine "business" as feminity. That is I haven't worn makeup and heeled shose for 40 years. I feel as though I'm in drag when I do. I'm not a feminine woman I'm a woman and secure enough in myself to have decided I don't need trappings to remind me of who I am.
until I started to buy hip belts and other sparklies :lol.

05-11-2008, 04:17 PM	#59 (permalink)
Aisha Azar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,058	Thanks!! [quote=Morocco;73165]Dammit, I was NOT gonna post. Disclaimers here: Aisha ia a longtime friend who I love & respect & when we seem to disagree, it is almost always based on our specific interpretations of certain words & what they mean to us two. Including "feminine essence" ... BUT I totally understand where she's coming from & what it means to her. Ergo no problem. Dearest M. I feel the same. I especially feel that when we disagree, you do not call my character into question, but stick steadfastly to the subject at hand, and most importantly, that you listen and try to really, really hear and understand what I am trying to say instead of putting up a wall of resistance between us. I thank you for that. Bunches of love, AA

05-11-2008, 10:07 AM	#51 (permalink)
jenc Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 727	Just rewatched clip to look for feminine essence. didn't see anything of that, but saw a definate masculine essence.............(sigh!!). Seriously, I saw a man displaying complete confidence in his self and in his body. If this means that he is in touch with his feminine side, or that he is in touch with a tenderness that is inherent in true masculinity, isn't this intrinsically the same thing. I didn't like the Khaled. I've tried looking at it to see if I would like it done by a woman and I'm not sure. How can I say his arms are too graceful???? I THINK I would say that it's a little too balletic for me, I prefer a little more direct energy, but I admit I could be justifying myself

05-11-2008, 06:40 PM	#60 (permalink)
jenc Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 727	Wow i was going to say that I want to dance like Tito, and then sometines I think no he's dancing like a man. But I do want that authentic feel. I don't want to dance like Khaled even though he's more feiminine in style. Khaled reminds me of why I feel uncomfortable with some trannies. I see a lot of mistaking feminine "business" as feminity. That is I haven't worn makeup and heeled shose for 40 years. I feel as though I'm in drag when I do. I'm not a feminine woman I'm a woman and secure enough in myself to have decided I don't need trappings to remind me of who I am. until I started to buy hip belts and other sparklies :lol.