Tarik Sultan

Maybe, maybe not.

Feminine and masculine are one of those loaded terms as it means slightly different things to different people. Some people would say a guy with braided hair and earring is feminine, while most guys into hip-hop would disagree strongly. You are right that it is a different energy than the theater folk dance. I've said before in different threads that its a different feeling and energy. The stick dances are based on a martial art, therefore they have a much different energy. Oriental and Baladi have a different intent. Its a loving happy playful type of energy. They're not posturing or taking themselves so seriously. It's about having fun and expressing emotions and feelings. Now is this feminine? It depends on how you define feminine. Many people would define the more delicate emotions as such. I can understand that but I draw the line at calling it womanly for the simple fact that all people have to have that energy to be rounded integrated people. When a man is holding a baby he has to draw on that softer energy, not an aggressive energy. Am I making sense?

The feeling of this music is very gentle and therefore calls for a more delicate approach, but there are songs that are different and call for a bolder interpretation whether the dancer is male or female.

With regards to Khaled. What you explain about him makes a lot of sense. Unlike Tito his general energy is very feminine, one could say even womanly. Even in the way he chooses to costume himself, but then again, he seems to admit that about himself and it is his intent. I find him to be a very talented dancer, although I don't personally care for his interpretation. HE is not an example of what I would recommend as an example of a man who dances in a manly fashion, and definitely would not say he has no feminine essence. And you are right, most people do find it uncomfortable seeing a man cross the line like that for many reasons, I am one of them. It doesn't motivate me and is not something I would want to emulate. However, I preface that last statement with the fact that he and dancers like him have every right to perform regardless of how I personally feel about it or not. Regardless of what all essence he has the boy can dance and that is undeniable.

Aisha Azar

Dear Aniseteph,

Aisha Azar

Dear Aniseteph,

I thought I should probably do an addendum here about my feelings about Khaled Mahmoud. What I do not like about his dancing has nothing to do with his over top "girly" thing. That would be just fine with me except he seems to have disconnected from his music in favor of doing a "Pop-Lock" routine, which is what I call that overly technical stuff that leaves the music behind in order for the dancer to say, "look at ME do THIS, and THIS, and THIS. Frankly, that kind of dance always leaves me perplexed and a little bit miffed because the dancer forgets to let you see the dance as opposed to it just being a tool for exhibiting a bunch of movements that mean nothing out of context. I am used seeing this on the western dance scene,because it has become pretty common, but it bummed me out considerably to see it in Cairo on an Arab dancer.
Regards,
A'isha

Aniseteph

Absolutely agree Tarik, no one has exclusive rights to expressing feelings, especially if you are making a very fine job of it. I didn't want to spark off the feminine/masculine hoohaa again. Big boys don't cry and girls need doors opening for them, let's leave it at that! (JOKE!!!!!)

A'isha, I have the words worst gaydar and tend to just go by what I'm told - saves thinking about stuff that's no concern of mine . I heard Khaled isn't gay and is married (yeah, I know, not mutually exclusive ) so I've always seen his dancing style as a stand-alone thing. Maybe that's why you don't see feminine essence, if it is a very "learnt" thing? ooh, interesting...

Too many tricks annoy me too, but in my case part of it is for the very ignoble reason that I CANT DO THAT

Aisha Azar

Dear Aneseteph,

You apparently do not have the world's worst gaydar as you commented on Khaled's dance being "girly". You are right, he IS girly when he dances. At one point, I leaned over to a friend at my table and said that he reminded me of Liberace, who was extremely "girly" without having feminine essence.
I think feminine essence is not a cultural, or learned thing, as you say. I think it manifests along cultural lines in similar ways in most cultures. In the dance there are specific reasons why people might not recognize feminine essence. I think some people do not see feminine essence because it is too subtle a quality in dance for them to see. I thing this is really true of people who have not been dancing long. I think others do not want to see it because of their own issues or because it is not politically correct. I think still others see it but are not willing to label it as "feminine", which might again have something to do with political correctness. This quality is something that was there before I labeled it, but people talked about it in even more esoteric ways than I seem to do. It is an elusive quality, but I think you did spot it in Tito, and I want to congratulate you on that. You have to see and feel it before you can begin to believe it is there or discover what it is.

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Ah, well that will probably change with time. I just am so tired of the whole Pop/lock style that even on a good dancer, it seems very shallow and mundane.
Regards,
A'isha

Aniseteph

Oh no, I recognise girly, camp, effeminate, queening it up or having exquisite taste in interior decor or any other cliche. I just have a mental block sometimes connecting it up with actual gay. I'm kind of stupid that way...

I think I expressed myself badly. I didn't mean to say anything about the learnedness or otherwise of feminine essence. I meant that maybe Khaled's feminineness was a learned thing, perhaps from the way he learned the dance, I don't know and I feel I'm talking way out of line here. Anyway the idea struck me as interesting because maybe you didn't see feminine essence precisely for that reason; HIS might be learnt. Whoah, you are talking about something deeeeeeep!

Thanks for the nice comments. I don't know if I'm seeing the same thing or whether I think it's feminine essence or what now! .... ah well, at least you guys are really making me think. Maybe I just see different flavours of "it". I'm a fervent believer in "it" in dance.

PS utterly agree about Liberace, great example. Did you see that picture of him on the "What were they thinking" thread? I'm going to have nightmares now...

Aisha Azar

Dear Anisetiph,

OH, I get it now. I thought you were referring to feminine essence and you were referring to Khaled, specifically. Sorry about the misunderstanding.



Me, too. Without It, it isn't the dance!


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I will have to go look!
Regards,
A'isha

Suheir

What about Mohammed Khazafy? I remember a UK dancer complaining that his Tahtib wasn't "masculine" enough! I think he's a fantastically graceful and elegant dancer, but if you're going to call that non-masculine, you may as well call Carlos Acosta "girly".

Tarik Sultan

Whose Carlos Acosta? I know Khazafy personally. He's not a very butch kind of guy at all. He's rather mellow. Not every guys has that machismo. I don't know. Would it have been better if he acted more macho, or would it look like he was acting? I tend not to be a big fan of most theater dance company Saidi dance. The reason why is specifically because they TRY to be macho and end up looking like they've got an iron rod stuck up their asses. Its very stiff, linear and sterile. The Saidi guys look like tom cats when they dance. They are graceful and their movements flow with a regal grace that is relaxed and self confident. Its very natural and breath taking to watch with the contrast of the stick and the flow of the galabeyas.

Tarik Sultan

Exactly where is it? that's one looooong thread. by the way, i've always wanted to ask...are you an egg or a potato?