Aisha Azar

Dear Prince Kayammer,

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This "beautiful thought" did not appear to be in your mind about this show since it excluded females, many who also are beautiful belly dancers. If you feel sad about this discussion, I feel sad that you all decided to leave out females in the first place, making the discussion necessary. Belly dance is not a Men's club of some kind where you can leave women behind and feel like you are just being good old boys together. Please, in the future do not try to make it into that.
Regards,
A'isha

chryssanthi sahar

I find this discussion absolutely unnecessary. Sorry Aisha, but I think the problem you have with this event, is your personal problem, probably based on some bad experiences you made as a female discriminated by men. Please don't try to generalize your personal problem and especially don't be so absolute about what your are telling. Different people have different opinions and you have to respect and accept this. Each of us has the freedom to find things right or wrong and as it seems there are quite some people here who find this event right and good. If you don't find such events good, just boycott them, but don't try to convince people who find them good to do the same. Thanks God we live in democratic countries and we have the freedom of decision.
By the way, I won't be able to do further postings for at least two weeks, because I'm going to Japan tomorrow and I don't know when I'll be able to visit an Internet cafe there, so in case you answer, I won't see what you answered.

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Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

Tarik Sultan

I'm well aware of this fact and I think it sucks to high heaven, which is why for many years I stayed away from working in clubs. I refused to go near establishments that underpaid my sisters and disrespected them and I still do.
The difference here is that good dancers still have access to private parties and weddings where people want good dancers and those are the better paying gigs anyway. Believe me, 20yrs from now I don't want to be hauling my biscuits around to this and that club, unless its a venue that I have created where I can set the tone and quality of the performances.

As for being graceful...... Are you kidding?! I've had to come to terms with the way things are years ago and so do most male dancers out of necessity, we have no choice. Unlike you however, I am not past my prime. Despite being over 40yrs old I still look like I'm in my 20s both in face and form. When the day comes that I start to get long in the tooth, I'll gladly step aside and hand the dance floor to the next generation, but that day ain't here yet. THEREFORE, I still think hiring unqualified dancers in professional venues SUCKS, for all the reasons you mentioned and because it sets a poor image for our dance in the eyes of the general public.

Tarik Sultan

My PERSONAL agenda is that there be as many qualified talented dancers in the public eye as possible regardless of their sex. This is hardly a "male review". Not any more than we could call the 99.98% of all female dance performances "GIRLIE SHOWS". If you're going to bitch and moan over one little event being sexist then I tell you what, every show without a male performer is exclusionary and sexist. Therefore, I suggest every dance studio, event promoter etc start beating the bushes to teach and hire at least one male dancer for their event. This whole objection is just ridiculous and I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Tarik Sultan

BULLSHIT!!! If that's the case where you live then I need to haul my ass out to your town. MArk's moved up to New York, if there were all these venues open to males dancers then he should be dancing all over the god damn place, he ain't. I may not care for his personal interpretation, but
he's a hell of a lot better than many of the girls I see dancing around, so where the hell is he performing?

The fact of the matter is cute, not cute talented or not, men still have a much harder time finding work or even being considered and anyone who doesn't know this basic fact is either from another planet or born yesterday. For the record, you ain't from another planet and you been here for quite a many yesterdays so....

This isn't a big deal all of a sudden because its happening to men. What is happening to men and women is slightly different. Yes there are women who miss out because there are some establishments that don't care about the quality of the art, but this does not exclude them from finding work in other venues. The true test is whether or not there are any establishments that would give a guy a job just because he had a nice body?

The performing arts has and always has been exclusionary based on youth, appearance, type etc. This goes for acting, modeling, and dancing of all forms and we all know this. The difference here is that from its inception, there was no role crated for male dancers, so we created one for ourselves. I don't know any other dance form where men are excluded from taking classes, but this is a regular occurrence all around the world. Thank god that there are more and more teachers who don't believe this way and encourage us. Further more to make the ridiculous
claim that an all male show is disrespectful to women is unfounded. If anything, to have all female performers because "THE CLIENTELE" only wants young pretty girls is far more disrespectful because A. IT REDUCES WOMEN TO MERE OBJECTS. B. ITS SHOWS A DISRESPECT AND DEVALUE OF WOMEN AS PERFORMERS and most of all C. IT TOTTALLY IGNORES HALF OF THE POPULATION AS IF THEY DON'T EXIST OR COUNT BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO BUSY KISSING THE MEN'S ASSES AND WORRYING WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE. Who cares about women, only the men count. THIS IS WHY WOMEN GO APE SHIT WHEN FINALLY THEY DO SEE A MAN DANCING. Its because they have been passed over, ignored and not taken into consideration since FOREVER. I've said it before I'll say it again, since Badia and her generation designed a version of the dance to appeal to a male taste, WHY THE HELL CAN'T SOMEONE DO THE SAME THING FOR WOMEN?! Don't they count too??? I for one think the do! And this is the main reason why I go out of my way to look good and make every woman in my audience feel special and appreciated.

No it isn't suddenly important, it sucks that any qualified dancer has to miss out on work because some sh**heat club owner would rather pay pennies for some talentless twit rather than spend the money and get a quality performer. It sucks that at least in this country club owner think a woman is washed up just at the time when she comes into the full understanding of her womanhood and therefore has more to offer as a performer. However, women are not forced to validate the legitimacy of their rights to perform because of their sex. Clubs will often hire cute talentless chicks because they look good, but if there are so many opportunities available to men as you claim, then show me the joints where they're hiring the stupid hard-bodied jocks just cause they look good!

Tarik Sultan

Dear Kayammer:

Do not feel sad. Know that 99.9% of the dance community is behind you and supports you and do not feel threatened or offended by the fact that this is an all male show. Believe me, if the dancers are all good quality, they will love it. We both know, as do 99.9 of our sisters, that we have had to take the initiative to make a place for ourselves in the dance community because we often faced opposition and discouragement. In the places where we do perform, if we are lucky enough to have a regular venue to perform, we've had to be damn good at what we do. Women may hoot and holler at a seminar show or hafla to show support for a guy, but when it comes to dancing for the general public, those of us who wish to be taken seriously have had to work damn hard.

Some people will not understand this because they have their own issues, (some of them have more issues than the New YORK TIMES!), their own insecurities and their won irrational fears. You know what, That's their problem. Anyone that would accuse you of being sexist without knowing a damn thing about you, or give you the benefit of the doubt as to why you even had the need to make an all male show, is not worth your attention or consideration. Like it or not, we guys are here and we are here to stay, not to compete with our sisters or take anything away from them, certainly not to exclude them, but to join them and assert to the world that we have a legitimate reason to be in this field. And anyone who has a problem with that needs to get over themselves.

Do your show, make it an annual thing. You might want to have at least 1 female dancer so you're not accused of being sexist. Oh, most importantly, DON'T FORGET TO PUT FOOTAGE ON YOUTUBE! I for one congratulate you on having the initiative to create a venue for yourselves!
I think that in the end this is what ALL dancers need to do because the majority of the Middle Eastern Night club owners have no respect for women, dancers or the art of Oriental Dance. And if ANYONE doesn't like what you're doing let them kiss you where you wrap your hip scarf!

Tarik Sultan

WELL ONE MORE TO THE LIST OF PEOPLE HERE WHO GETS IT! YOU'VE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, IT'S THE EXACT SAME THING!

PrinceKayammer

Thank you Tarik,
You will have the videos on you tube as soon as they are ready.Just a little bit support from everyone.Respect to all.
Greetings from
Greece

__________________
Prince Kayammerبرنس قيامر

Aisha Azar

Dear Cryssanthi,
You are incorrect in thinking that I have a personal problem with men, so please do not try to play psychoanalyst when you are not qualified. I respect different opinions, but will not stand by and act like it is okay to exclude females from this dance on any level. I work with men quite frequently, but do not exclude women in the process. Nor do I exclude men, and it is easy to prove that. I have taught men for many years, included them in my shows long before it was common practice and been supportive of talented male dancers as long as I have been dancing. The men that I have worked with in my last three bi-yearly shows include Mark Balahadia, Ra'ed Azar and a young man named Jacobi, all of them uniquely qualified for what they did in our performances. I see something wrong with an all male review and I am free to say so, just as you are to disagree with me.
Regards,
A'isha



As for Tarik's charge below that I called any one individual sexist, it is not true. I stand by the statement that an all male review is sexist. An all female dance show is not sexist because there are not nearly as many male belly dancers yet as as there are female, and so an all female show is not skewing the numbers in any way. The rest of his blurb is not worth responding to, since he is now back to calling me insecure, etc. instead of looking at the situation from anything but his own personal agenda.
RE Mark Balahadia: He is one of the very best up and coming dancers on the scene today. He is consummately in love with his music, he responds naturally and fully to the music and he understands the dance and its cultural implications. He is a pleasure to watch dance and he is as good a teacher as he is a performer. I would highly recommend him to anyone who wants to understand Lebanese style dance in depth. He gave a great workshop while he was here and my dance company and I intend to have him back as soon as we can. He also has a great sense of humor and is really fun back stage!

Since this is fast turning into a witch hunt instead of a real, thinking conversation in which we do not get ugly, I am leaving it now. I HOPE people will think seriously about what I have said in the past about males and the dance, and what we see happening now.

Tarik Sultan

I think your choosing to inject something into an event that wasn't there nor intended and pointedly refusing to see that offensive. The reason why they are doing this is not to exclude women. This is one event. All the dancers I've seen listed in this thing have performed in shows with women, teach women, perform with women. If it were a case where EVERY show they did was just for men, then I would agree with you because that would be exclusionary. There is a reason why they are doing what they are doing.

As to my BLURB. As usual what I find insufferable about trying to have a logical conversation with you is your total inability to see things from another point of view. Once you have an idea in your mind, no matter how stilted you will bend logic and reason to the point of trying to explain why the sky ain't blue to prove your point. As for my agenda, I have no agenda, other than that the dance be respected and esteemed as a true art form and not a novelty. Anyone who has taken a class or workshop with me knows that I give every student attention, encouragement and that I believe 100% in honoring the spirits of women and their right to exist, be taken seriously and respected in this world without compromise or apologies!

If I have a big mouth with regards to male dance its because I have to. Circumstance and the combined prejudices of homophobia and reverse sexism has made me thus. Women simply do not have to validate their right to perform this dance in the eyes of the general public anywhere in the world, MEN DO. And if you can't acknowledge that fact then you are being dishonest. The last straw for me was your statement that men have just as many venues as women do. Are you kidding me??!! If that's the case Tito would be dancing in Cairo proper, not behind god's back in Sharam. The fact is that no matter how good he is, (and you yourself now admit it), he is discriminated against for no other reason than because he is a man. Gay/straight, feminine essence no feminine essence, as long as he's got a pair of testicles he hasn't got a snow ball's chance in hell. He is talented and should be dancing in the top venues in CAiro, (or what's left of them which ain't much), but he's not. There are 6 nightclubs in walking radius of my main performance venue. If I had as much opportunity as any female dancer, I'd be doing 7 clubs a night instead of 1 or 2, so please, don't insult my intelligence by telling me we have equality.

So, if I come off rude at times with you...well... whatever I've never been one to mince words or blow smoke up anyone's A**. I tell the truth and for some people the truth hurts. I stand by what I said and I do not apologize. Sh*** ain't sugar and if someone is coming at me with a load of bull, I will let them know, I don't care who it is or where they're from. I'll always be polite and calm in the beginning, but when the ridiculous statements start flying about and my words are taken out of context, deliberately twisted or ignored, then I ain't gonna be so nice about it. In any case the one thing I do agree with you on is that going around in circles is pointless. You don't understand because you don't want to because the fact is the thought of a man who isn't afraid to be a man or who projects a male energy doing this dance terrifies you. It is an irrational fear and that is just a fact. If you choose to see it as an insult, whatever, so be it.
I will not stand quiet in the face of anyone who who would try to put men in 2nd place or challenge or rights to be who we are. I will defend it just as passionately as I defended you when you were being wrongfully attacked by that Egyptian idiot. I'd do it again, if needed and will continue to speak up in the future. And when I am in the place to run my own venues, I will have nights that are just for older plus size women who can really dance, why, because they are excluded that's why. I guess that makes me a potential ageist and sexist!