Dipali

Hello all....

I would love to know more about Male Belly Dancing, I have watched few male belly dancers, and it seems the movement is very feminine, I come from a country(India) where dance is for everybody, but we do have a different style (If you know indian dancing style ,Bhangra , kothakoli , Bharat natyam or kathak ).Male body movement is very different to the female body movements. Yes there are lots hip shaking and neck movement, but somehow they do feel or looks a bit mascular. So please anybody explain what is actually a dancing style for Male belly dancer, Or male dancer just stealing the styles from their Female counter part.

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Moon

Hi Dipali,

One of our male members, Zorba, has a very nice website which you might find useful: http://www.doubleveil.net/

Dipali

Thank you very much Moon. Zobras website is quite informative,

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DaVidofScandinavia

Dear Dipali.
I dance and teach both Middle Eastern dances and Indian dances. If you look at Bhangra - there is no gender difference in the movements. However, Bhangra was traditionally a male folkdance - and Giddha was it's female counter part.

If you look at Middle Eastern folkdances - you will find the same differences. There are certain folkdances for men, and certain folkdances for women. However, "bellydance" is not a folkdance. It is indeed based off of folkdance traditions and movement vocabulary - however, the look, expression and stylization of "bellydance" is different. Each dancer has his or her own expression - but the movement vocabulary is indeed the same, or at least similar.

If you look at Bharata Natyam compared to Kathak - you will see that Kathak has more of a feminine expression, whereas BN is more geometric and strict looking. Compare the classical styles with Bhangra or any other male folkdances from India and you will see that the classical styles have a softer more feminine expression in comparison.

Mostly in dance styles that are "unisex", you will see that it is the male physique and strength that makes a masculine expression, or in fact - the role the male dancers play in a performance piece... not the movements themselves.

Movement has no gender, it is stylization - costuming - presentation - social expectations that give the movements a gender.

Hope this helps

DaVid
www.davidofscandinavia.com
www.the-eda.com

Recnadocir

I agree with DaVid, and in fact it's really self-evident that there is absolutely no particular "male belly dance" training. I have taken classes with a number of teachers, numerous classes with some (Suhaila, Horacio and Beata), and a few classes with others. Nowhere have I been told that there is any male variation on any movement.

It's a legitimate question, though. It's usually the second thing people say to me, the first being, "I never knew that males belly danced!?)

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Aisha Azar

Dear Dipali,
In speaking with Middle Eastern men in general, they will tell you that it is "shameful" for males to belly dance. They see it as a feminine essenced activity, and I believe they are correct in this. However, I also believe that there is no reason why men can not perform belly dance also. In fact, I have never spoken with a male from the Middle East who did not think it wrong for men to belly dance. When I speak to men that others might think are doing "belly dance" they refer to themselves as doing shaabi or other more folkloric dance. The best male dancer I have ever seen is an Egyptian who does not perform at all, but we have often danced together at parties. He considers himself not to be belly dancing at all, but doing Shaabi. I agree with the Arabs that belly dance is a feminine essenced dance when presented properly. There is nothing masculine about the dance in its native environments, in essence or movement. It is not the movement itself that makes dance a male or female activity, but the essence and the feeling behind the movement. There are such things as masculine and feminine and we need to be real about that as far as belly dance goes. There really ar vast differences in expression between genders.
I disagree with DaVid that movement is genderless. Even among animals there are female and male ways of moving and doing things. Among cultures there are movements that are definately female, and movement in itself does indeed have meaning. For example, most cultures move their hips in certain ways flirtatiously and with sexual connotation. No one misunderstands the basic message. Other types of messages are just as clear. This is why I can watch dance from India and still understand the basic stories told by the dancers who are dancing Hindi religous stories, though I do not know the culture very well.
As some people here know, I spent some time coaching Aziz, who was once the most renowned male dancer in the U. S. He was in total agreement with me on this and he danced without accentuating his masculinity. He was gender neutral when he danced. He was sexual and sensual and wonderful, but he had no need to try to change the nature of the dance by masculinizing it.
Regards,
A'isha

Recnadocir

"feminine essenced activity" !!!???

Sorry Aisha Azar, you lost me right there. I'll try this argument again, because it's right on point:

If men should not be bellydancing, then women should not be ballet dancing, tap or jazz dancing. All of those styles were begun by men, and created on male bodies!

Furthermore, if we go all the way back to the Paleolithic, the best archeological and cultural anthropological research indicates that MEN were the first dancers- dancing around the evening fire, telling the story of the hunt through dance. Using this same distorted "logic" about belly dance being feminine, and only for women, then based on what we can know about prehistory, women should not be allowed to dance at all. Any style! After all, dance in general was invented by men, and set on men's bodies.

Furthermore, I live in the US, and could care less what "Middle Eastern men" think about males belly dancing, assuming they really are monolithically against it, which I doubt.

So c'mon Aisha Azar- what hope is there that the general public will accept male belly dancers as being equally valid, if someone of your longstanding status within the belly dance community doesn't?

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DaVidofScandinavia

Dear A'isha.
You do indeed make some real valid points and misunderstand me correctly, I am no supporter of so called "Masculine Bellydancing". There merely is no such thing. There is nothin masculine about Raqs Sharki at all. Neither is there anything masculine about Ballet, Morris dances or Kathak either, but it is a known fact that they are executed by both men and women.

My point is exactly as you mention, movements are *perceived* to have genders due to how they are perceived, understood, read, expressed. However, the movement itself has no gender - it is added to it. I can execute the same movement with a masculine expression as I can with a feminine expression. It is the expression, or maybe even more - the expected expression, that decides what gender the audience characterizes the movement to have. I as a male performer may intend the movement to be feminine or masculine - but to the GP out there - it will be perceived according to whatever connotations and perceptions they may have. This is more of a concept of thinking to expand vocabulary rather than anything else. I do not use it to justify so called "masculine bellydance" or "dancing like real men" or whatever. To me, art has no gender, movement has no gender. Gender is a layer of expression just as strength, intent, emphasis etc are. Without gender - you only have the raw bare movement so it is necessary to intentionally choose what expression, intent, emphasis, accent etc you are trying to articulate for your audience as a professional.

It is not about intending to change the nature of the dance style or such, it is more about understanding the concept of the dance by liberating the movement itself - from cultural, social, psychological and gender specific perceptions. As a male dancer - this as helped me a lot in understanding the true intent behind a movement - and I strongly believe that it is a beneficial "experiment" for any dancer to do; to try out the movements in different expressions... be it different moods, attitudes or in different genders.

And in your reference to Indian dances... Kathakali is for instance a great example.... this dance style is only performed by men. Men play the different characters and portray women, men, children, demons etc.

I would actually go as far as saying that there is no dance style that is truely masculine. Then again, since most dance styles are indeed instructed by men - to women (and men) there cant really be a true feminine dance style either, can there? Some of the most regarded names within our styles are men... Yousri Sharif, Mahmoud Reda, Ibrahim Akef, Tito, Horacio.... Khaled Mahmoud... to mention a few.

It always intrigues me when people say that "men shouldnt be doing this and men shouldnt be doing that" when in fact - most women are taught to be women and act like women, by men. In the modeling industry, in dance, in fashion, in make up, in hair fashion, in design etc etc.

Im not meaning to sound defensive or anything, this post is merely observations. Sometimes different approaches intend the same, however - I think as a female dancer - it is easy to take the expression of gender as a given by the mere quality of being a woman. Especially in a women dominated style such as Raqs Sharki or "bellydance".

I have seen various experiments by male dancers when it comes to "masculinifying" the dance. And my true honest opinion is and will always be as follows "If you dont have guts to do it the way the dance style is intended and done, why do it?". It takes a lot of guts to pull on Ballet tights for a guy and so does a hipscarf, so if you're gonna do it - do it right, do it well and *mean* it. There is no reason to try to change something in to something it is not just because you are not willing to invest the work, time and effort it takes to execute the style properly. There is no such thing as masculine bellydance, there will never be. What has been done a certain way for thousands of years should be respected and maintained. Heck, even the Egyptian male performers that do "Orientale", Raqs Sharki, Shaabi or whatever dont change the expression. A perfect example is Tito - whom is well recognized for his talent, abilities and so forth both within folklore and Raqs Sharki. His shows are well attended in Hurgada, Egypt.

You will always find people that will be uncomfortable with male dancers - be it Raqs Sharki dancers or other styles. The only way to convince them that they are mistaken in their discomfort is through proving your skills, not through basterdizing what they preceive as correct.

Being a male dancer is always a struggle between wanting to be the beefy butch stud and being the scrawny androgyne cutie. Then again, these are also just characters, arent they? *wink*
And truth be known, it is basically impossible to keep the flexiblity this dance form requires if you beef up too much.

I for one have no intention of coming off as anything else than a good, strong, entertaining and skilled, playful artist - I leave the gender interpretation and bla bla up to the audience.

DaVid

DaVidofScandinavia

Rico,
I will vouch for the fact that A'isha is accepting of male dancers. I have corresponded with her for quite some time and she has never said anything negative in regard to male dancers - she is rather supportive. So supportive that she's sponsoring me to Spokane this fall :eek:

And I dont think she would have coached Aziz if she didn't like guy dancers.

Oh and even if there are dancers out there that have something against male dancers...[insert any of the below]
1) so what, we're in America
2) we just need to be best at what we do and prove that we are an ass-et to the dance scene (*phun intended*)
3) they dont live in our town
4) anyone is appreciative of well executed art, so - we just have to make sure that is what we're giving them as male dancers.

DaVid

DaVidofScandinavia

A'isha, and everyone else, this is so much fun!

OK, I see what I have missed to express... My regard of movement being genderless is from a dance stand point. Now, if one has the opinion that most/many dance related movements have a feminine expression from the get go, then of course all movements will be somewhat feminine looking. That aside, I try to differenciate between what is a dance technical approach and a cultural approach.

As a dance technician I aim to express a clear difference between a masculine and a feminine expression in my movements using my own definition of neutral as the point I jump in any direction from. This definition is based on the training I have received and impression I have gotten from various dancers worldwide. I agree to a certain point that dance has a somewhat feminine flavor from the get go - so therefore one has to create a definition of what is masculine and what is feminine considering that "get go" point as the neutral.

Now from a cultural observer's point of view. YES, most Arabs have indeed the opinion that men should not Raqs, nor should perform unless they are representing a cultural folkdance. Even then it is considered somewhat inappropriate. I have no desire to change the people's cultural opinion through my work. However, I do aim to make it tolerable for them to suffer through my presentations through presenting them with the best dancing I can possible squeeze out of myself. At least they will recognize my ability, or lack of such. From my personal experience, I have at numerous occasions experienced to receive giggles and wierd faces at the start of my performances - ending up in an aknowleding nod towards the end.

I have no desire to change several milion people's cultural regard of what I do, however - what I can do is to represent their heritage as well as I can, research the songs I use, learn their language, make the best possible efforts to keep on educating myself continously... just like a female dancer should do.

I mean, there honestly isnt much of a difference between being laughed at for being refused to perform due to being a male dancer, or due to being a "hooker in a two piece costume". Both are just cultural regards and do not reflect upon the individual or the dancer's artistic ability.

Every one of us have to prove ourselves every time we get on stage. And the only thing we can possibly achieve through our presentations is a recognition of our ability, or lack of such. Now the collaborate benefit made through the individual efforts is that the recognition of the dance style/the dancers' abilities will be higher in the long run if everyone commits and does their share....and as an extention of the commitment made teach others the same values and ethics when it comes to representing the art forms we all so dearly cherish.

I have no vendetta going on against "anti-male dancers", I just want to do what I do as best as I can and if that benefits everyone - Praise the Shimmy! If not, well, I'll get old and stiff and have to retire within decent time so I will enjoy my journey until then (and annoy the heck out of everyone through my lack of contribution).

DaVid