Please help me brighten my knowledge... - Page 3

Zorba · 08-18-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Zorba,
Actually, there are scientists that would disagree that "movement has no gender". Although I can not remember much about it since it happened years ago, there is something about having both men and women lift a chair into their bodies from a certain poasition. It is something women can do but men can not, because the sexes balance differently through the upper portion of their bodies.
There are also differences in movement between males and females in more subtle ways. For example, while we both do walk, there is probably a difference in the mechanics of walking since in general women are broad through the pelvis and men through the shoulders. ( Notice the term "general, here"), which gives us different balance points in our normal gaits.

That's right - no argument.

Now, tell me what this has to do with Belly Dance?

One of my favorite illustrations of this exact point: When I do maias, my hip structure causes them to have a different quality than, say, my (female) instructor. BUT - I can still do maias (vertical downward figure-8). I had to work hard to "break loose" my pelvis to be able to do them as male pelvises are not only narrower, but stiffer than female pelvises. However, since I was successful means that a maia is also a "masculine" movement.

You are also right about culture - there are some things that are essentially universal. Ok, fine. It is *still* artificial - to my admittedly idealist mind. You wouldn't believe the things I've read and/or been told that males shouldn't do in this dance (if indeed, they should do this dance at all). These include:

No veilwork, no maias or other side-to-side hip movements, no snake arms, no fringe on costumes, no bare bellies, no dancing on toe, no dancing on the diagonal, no dancing with arms overhead, no "dropped finger oriental hands", blah, blah, blah. What's left?

I ignore all that and follow my bliss...

Zorba · 08-18-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

The qualities of great dancers also have to do with accurately protraying what they are trying to portray. If they are cold, unnattached and do not understand what they are doing, then they are not great dancers, no matter what their physical abilities. Once again and with feeling : DANCE IS MORE THAN MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed it is - dance is emotion in motion. My instructor is VERY big on emotion and feeling.

Last time I checked, males have emotion too...

Aisha Azar · 08-18-2006, 04:15 PM

Dear Zorba,
Have you ever heard me say that males can not or should not belly dance? No, you have not. However, just becasue males can do the movements of belly dance does not mean that the dance is male in its essence, any more than because I can do the movements of Arda mean that it is a feminine essenced dance. Arda does not change in its meaning or feeling if a female does it and if she feminizes the dance, she is no longer performing Arda, but instead a hybrid dance of some sort.
You ask me what my statements about men and women being differently put together have to do with belly dance??? I believe you or Rico have intimated that we move exactly alike, so I was pointing out differences in physical structure that might influence the way we move, and that has to do with not only belly dance, but moving around in general. Since dance is partly about movement, this will affect the dance on males and female bodies.
I have also never stated or implied that men do not have emotion, however, both you and Rico seem to be very hung up in the idea that the dance is about the fact that you can do the movements, and that because of that the nature of the dance becomes masculine when you perform those movements. The movements are pretty universal and are seen in other dances, other types of activity even that go outside dance. You have also stated that movement is genderless, which I blieve is not true. All I have to do is look at the animal kingdom to see it... I went whale watching recently and was told that there are very specific things that each gender does that the other gender does not do. This is true for humans, too on some levels, though some people prefer to see these differences as "cultural" and therefore "artificial" as you say
And there is nothing artificial about culture,either. Otherwise it would not be seen in exactly every person on earth. Culture is a biological as our thought processes. Environment and other factors influence it, just as it has influenced the wider nose of the African, the epicanthic fold of the Asian, the the light skin of the Northern Eurpoean. Culture is exactly as biological as that.
And within cultures develops dance, which serves its own psychological and biological purposes within different cultures. There is no way to truly separate out a dance from its culture and still have it be the dance itself. Belly dance, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it, whether or not it suits your prupose or mine, is still a feminine essenced dance. It has nothing to do with what our preferences about that might be. Can we please trust the people from whom the dance originates to know its meaning and essence?
Regards,
A'isha

Moon · 08-18-2006, 04:16 PM

I, too, believe gender is only biological (so including the fact that men are often stronger than women and women having another pelvis shape than men, etc.) and I also believe dance is much, much more than movement only and emotions play an important role.
I know there are people who believe that there are such things as "male emotions" and "female emotions", or "male behaviour" and "female behaviour", but I believe that, when looking at emotions and behaviour, there is no such thing as "male" and "female", these aspects differ from person to person, but can be, and often are more or less influenced by culture.
So my opinion is, when someone really "feels" the dance and knows what he/she is doing, he/she can be a great dancers. And as I don't believe emotions are gender specific, I think both men and women can be great bellydancers!
I think A'isha is right by saying most Middle Eastern men don't really accept male dancers, but I have the idea many Europian and American men feel the same about male dancers (and many women too!). Maybe because they're in the minority, maybe they still have to get used to it. But I think opinions can change, however it probably won't change very fast and some people will never accept it, but that's ok.
(By the way I'm curious, does any of you know what Middle Eastern women think of male bellydancers?)

Recnadocir · 08-18-2006, 05:53 PM

Hmmm can't find the post where I allegedly reduced dance to physical movement alone. But the emotional expression of the dancer is personal. If one wants to include one's gender as part of that expression, that is totally up to the individual. But I believe that the human spirit, which I do believe in, is gender-less.

And again, there is no known gender component to muscular histology or cellular biology. Muscles contract in response to commands from the nervous system, simply put, and this works in exactly the same way in both males and females.

As far as Paleolithic "dance" I think it logical that not much changed from the Paleolithic to the Neolithic, and we know that in the Neolithic it was the shamans, who were male, who are generally considered to have been the first dancers.

Aniseteph · 08-18-2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaVidofScandinavia

Dear A'isha.
Neither is there anything masculine about Ballet, Morris dances or Kathak either, but it is a known fact that they are executed by both men and women.

Good job there are no hardcore Morris dancers on this forum - they would be spilling their pints of real ale down their beards :eek:
(if there ARE any - sorry for the offensive stereotyping chaps, only joking!)
Shake those bells
A xxx

Aisha Azar · 08-18-2006, 08:06 PM

Dear Rico,
Again, I am requesting the sources of your information, that males were the first dancers, Neolithic, Paleolithic, SubCreatatious (just kidding on that last one!). In to look at the materials, I need journal, author, page number, ISBN... any infromation that would lead me to a source for this info.
As for people genders being the same at the muscular or cellular levels. There are even DNA factors that are male or female, and even in incredbly old DNA samples. Remember how they discussed Lucy, (the australopihicene not the dancer), in terms of female, mitochondrial DNA? Remember how they were able to trace a male DNA sample from Africa to a living Chuksi male in Siberia? This was due to DNA sampling alone. Our gender is in every cell of our bodies. Muscles may or may not contract the same way in male and females, or the info may or may not travel the same neurological path, but in each muscle cell is information about gender, and yes, though this is just my opinion as of yet, I believe that just as they find that in some very general ways, male and females brains are different, they will find those differences at neurological levels some day as well.
If it is just your opinion that men danced before women, please state so. If you have some conclusive and reliable research on the subject, I would be very interested o read it.

Dear Aniseteph,
Can you please elaborate on the Morris dance thing?? I know very little about this dance form, but would not mind hearing more!

Regards to you both,
A'isha

Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 08-19-2006, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Zorba,
Have you ever heard me say that males can not or should not belly dance? No, you have not. However, just becasue males can do the movements of belly dance does not mean that the dance is male in its essence, any more than because I can do the movements of Arda mean that it is a feminine essenced dance. Arda does not change in its meaning or feeling if a female does it and if she feminizes the dance, she is no longer performing Arda, but instead a hybrid dance of some sort.

ARGH! The limitations of this communications medium! Let's take a deep breath here...

I'm not attacking you - or your viewpoint as I think you and I are VERY close in our thinking - we're just picking nits here!

Indeed, as you have stated many times, you coached the divine Aziz - who I have nothing but the HIGHEST respect for because, at least in the one video I was able to see of him, he is a dancer FIRST, and a male SECOND. Or so it came across to me. This is what I strive for personally. I want people to enjoy my dance and not even worry about what gender I am, or what gender I'm coming across as, blah, blah.

Quote:

You ask me what my statements about men and women being differently put together have to do with belly dance??? I believe you or Rico have intimated that we move exactly alike, so I was pointing out differences in physical structure that might influence the way we move, and that has to do with not only belly dance, but moving around in general. Since dance is partly about movement, this will affect the dance on males and female bodies.

I agree with you here, and indeed, sited examples. We're disagreeing more about nits here! I think perhaps what we're trying to say is that the movements are the "same" (as we're both human), but the QUALITY, the "essence" CAN BE different due to the (generally) different hip/body structure between the genders.

Quote:

I have also never stated or implied that men do not have emotion, however, both you and Rico seem to be very hung up in the idea that the dance is about the fact that you can do the movements, and that because of that the nature of the dance becomes masculine when you perform those movements.

Well, yes and no. I say the dance is about emotion - and never accused you of saying men don't have emotion {smiling}. Does the nature of the dance become "masculine" when I perform it? That's a yes/no/maybe kind of thing that is very hard for me to articulate. To *MY* mind, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to do ANYTHING that is "feminine" - because I'm a male. OTOH, if someone sees my dance and thinks I am/it is as feminine as Britney Spears, that's OK with me. If it works for them, it works for me. *I* just don't see myself that way.

Quote:

The movements are pretty universal and are seen in other dances, other types of activity even that go outside dance. You have also stated that movement is genderless, which I blieve is not true. All I have to do is look at the animal kingdom to see it... I went whale watching recently and was told that there are very specific things that each gender does that the other gender does not do. This is true for humans, too on some levels, though some people prefer to see these differences as "cultural" and therefore "artificial" as you say.

We are NOT "common animals", we have a highly developed intellect. Unlike animals, we can CHOOSE what we want to be.

Quote:

And there is nothing artificial about culture,either. Otherwise it would not be seen in exactly every person on earth. Culture is a biological as our thought processes. Environment and other factors influence it, just as it has influenced the wider nose of the African, the epicanthic fold of the Asian, the the light skin of the Northern Eurpoean. Culture is exactly as biological as that.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. {smiling}. I'm not a cultural anthropologist by any means, merely an "armchair philosopher". But if you look long enough through space and time, I "think" you'll find at least one exception to any cultural rule you can think of. I could be wrong, and am willing to have something pointed out to me.

Quote:

And within cultures develops dance, which serves its own psychological and biological purposes within different cultures. There is no way to truly separate out a dance from its culture and still have it be the dance itself. Belly dance, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it, whether or not it suits your prupose or mine, is still a feminine essenced dance. It has nothing to do with what our preferences about that might be. Can we please trust the people from whom the dance originates to know its meaning and essence?
Regards,
A'isha

I'll agree that it certainly resides in a "feminine context" at the present time. Two points: 1) even if it has always been so, as a "thinking animal" I don't necessarily need precedent to justify my approach, and 2)The world is a big place in both time and space. Not even "experts" agree on the origin of this dance - but I find it HIGHLY unlikely that its CURRENT "owners" invented it. But I'll save the conversation about monotheism and absolutism for an appropriate venue!

I find conversations with people like you to be VERY stimulating and thought provoking. And I always enjoy an well-reasoned argument that is contrary to my own beliefs - such gives me the opportunity to refine my own viewpoint, or even encorporate a new viewpoint into my own. I'd love to sit down for a couple of days and chat about this sometime - face to face works better!

Deep apologies if I've offended - 'twas not my intention! {BOW HERE}

DaVidofScandinavia · 08-19-2006, 06:34 AM

Universal expression of movement - so true, A'isha. That's what I've been trying to express, but I guess I expressed myself a bit wrong by saying "movement has no gender". I intended to say that movement itself is universal

As far as personal preferences in regard to male performers and what men should and shouldn't do...well, what can I say, you cant win'em all. And I never intended to either.

I think what is highly relevant to take notice of is that not all male dancers are trained the same way, have the same technical background, have the same expression, nor present themselves the same. You can not generalize and say that you prefer not to see male dancers perform. It's like saying that you dont want to see female bellydancers because they're all prostitutes and raunchy. We all know that's not a fact and neither is it a fact that all male dancers shouldnt perform.

I strongly contest the idea of generalizing between what even just two male dancers present. We are *way* different from each other - and I know that several colleagues of mine out there would be highly offended if you equated what I do and they do. And I certainly feel the same way visa versa from a dance philosophic point of view.

DaVid

Aisha Azar · 08-19-2006, 09:04 PM

Dear Zorba,
Yes, on stage Aziz was indeed a dancer first and his gender was meaningless, as he meant it to be. He very much understood and agreed with the concept of the dance as a feminine essenced activity. We discussed it in depth.

You state that the quality and essence of the dance "can be different" in males than in females. How so? When in your mind does it stop being belly dance and become something else? You say that in your mind it is impossible for you to do anything that is feminine because you are a male. The fact is that no one is either all female or male. We all have varying degrees of hormones and other elements that make us both male and female. This is only a suggestion.... perhaps it is some feminine part of your nature that makes the dance appeal to you as a personal performance art...???

And, actually on many levels we ARE common animals, our sexuality included.
For that matter, animals as well as humans have defining places in their societies, do indeed reason out problems, experience political and cultural elements within their species, herd, family, gender and age. What's the big difference between us and them besides the opposable thumb?? Please do not so easily dismiss the animal kingdom or put yourself so far above it. They dance, too, you know and probably for many of the same reasons we do...yes... at the "biological level". And animals can sometimes choose what they want to be more than we can...ask the little child chained to the weaving machine in Iran or the 7 year old Thai prostitue or the American drug addict.

Most of the "experts" with whom I have spoken do agree that belly dance is a relatively new dance style, about 100 or so years old, and point to Badia Masabni as the specific personality who brought the dance to the entertainment stage. I agree that she brought it to the public in Egypt and that she had counterparts in Turkey and Lebanon, but I also feel that it was developing in urban communities before she did so. So...you see, it is pretty easy to trace the dance and meaning, actually. And in this case precedent and provenance have everything to do with what the dance is... and many of its developers are still alive today. There is literally no such thing as "The ancient art of belly dance". For more on what Arab dancers say about this, see ARAMCO World Magazine, Sept/ Oct, 1971, "La Danse du Ventra", by Elias Antar, p. 4.
Zorba, you did not offend me in any way, and you also make me think my thoughts through and examine why I think them!! I appreciate our conversations very much because you present a viewpoint without malice and with the occasional good wit.

Dear Rico,
I think I understand then that men being the first dancers is your own theory?
Just because women did not dance at men's ceremonies does not mean that they did not dance at their own... and I am not sure that there is any evidence that women were not Shamans too in many societies and perhaps did their own dancing. My own personal opinion is that men and women, as in a whole bunch of other speicies, danced even before they were conscious of being men and women, if we speak in term of paleolithic. I believe it is a biological function of the human being, just as it is in some birds and other species. I think all primates dance and we just don't recognize it in others yet. But, that is my thepory and not a fact.

Dear DaVid,
I agree that that it is impossible to judge any dancers by any others, whether they be male or female. I have seen hideous and beautiful in both genders. I can honestly say that one of my favorite dancers ever is male.

Regards to you all,
A'isha

08-18-2006, 04:15 PM	#23 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Males Dear Zorba, Have you ever heard me say that males can not or should not belly dance? No, you have not. However, just becasue males can do the movements of belly dance does not mean that the dance is male in its essence, any more than because I can do the movements of Arda mean that it is a feminine essenced dance. Arda does not change in its meaning or feeling if a female does it and if she feminizes the dance, she is no longer performing Arda, but instead a hybrid dance of some sort. You ask me what my statements about men and women being differently put together have to do with belly dance??? I believe you or Rico have intimated that we move exactly alike, so I was pointing out differences in physical structure that might influence the way we move, and that has to do with not only belly dance, but moving around in general. Since dance is partly about movement, this will affect the dance on males and female bodies. I have also never stated or implied that men do not have emotion, however, both you and Rico seem to be very hung up in the idea that the dance is about the fact that you can do the movements, and that because of that the nature of the dance becomes masculine when you perform those movements. The movements are pretty universal and are seen in other dances, other types of activity even that go outside dance. You have also stated that movement is genderless, which I blieve is not true. All I have to do is look at the animal kingdom to see it... I went whale watching recently and was told that there are very specific things that each gender does that the other gender does not do. This is true for humans, too on some levels, though some people prefer to see these differences as "cultural" and therefore "artificial" as you say And there is nothing artificial about culture,either. Otherwise it would not be seen in exactly every person on earth. Culture is a biological as our thought processes. Environment and other factors influence it, just as it has influenced the wider nose of the African, the epicanthic fold of the Asian, the the light skin of the Northern Eurpoean. Culture is exactly as biological as that. And within cultures develops dance, which serves its own psychological and biological purposes within different cultures. There is no way to truly separate out a dance from its culture and still have it be the dance itself. Belly dance, whether or not anyone is willing to admit it, whether or not it suits your prupose or mine, is still a feminine essenced dance. It has nothing to do with what our preferences about that might be. Can we please trust the people from whom the dance originates to know its meaning and essence? Regards, A'isha

08-18-2006, 05:53 PM	#25 (permalink)
Recnadocir Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: La La Land Posts: 466	Hmmm can't find the post where I allegedly reduced dance to physical movement alone. But the emotional expression of the dancer is personal. If one wants to include one's gender as part of that expression, that is totally up to the individual. But I believe that the human spirit, which I do believe in, is gender-less. And again, there is no known gender component to muscular histology or cellular biology. Muscles contract in response to commands from the nervous system, simply put, and this works in exactly the same way in both males and females. As far as Paleolithic "dance" I think it logical that not much changed from the Paleolithic to the Neolithic, and we know that in the Neolithic it was the shamans, who were male, who are generally considered to have been the first dancers. __________________ http://a537.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...0267e2f1c0.jpg *Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!*

08-18-2006, 08:06 PM	#27 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Males, etc. Dear Rico, Again, I am requesting the sources of your information, that males were the first dancers, Neolithic, Paleolithic, SubCreatatious (just kidding on that last one!). In to look at the materials, I need journal, author, page number, ISBN... any infromation that would lead me to a source for this info. As for people genders being the same at the muscular or cellular levels. There are even DNA factors that are male or female, and even in incredbly old DNA samples. Remember how they discussed Lucy, (the australopihicene not the dancer), in terms of female, mitochondrial DNA? Remember how they were able to trace a male DNA sample from Africa to a living Chuksi male in Siberia? This was due to DNA sampling alone. Our gender is in every cell of our bodies. Muscles may or may not contract the same way in male and females, or the info may or may not travel the same neurological path, but in each muscle cell is information about gender, and yes, though this is just my opinion as of yet, I believe that just as they find that in some very general ways, male and females brains are different, they will find those differences at neurological levels some day as well. If it is just your opinion that men danced before women, please state so. If you have some conclusive and reliable research on the subject, I would be very interested o read it. Dear Aniseteph, Can you please elaborate on the Morris dance thing?? I know very little about this dance form, but would not mind hearing more! Regards to you both, A'isha Regards, A'isha

08-19-2006, 09:04 PM	#30 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Males, etc. Dear Zorba, Yes, on stage Aziz was indeed a dancer first and his gender was meaningless, as he meant it to be. He very much understood and agreed with the concept of the dance as a feminine essenced activity. We discussed it in depth. You state that the quality and essence of the dance "can be different" in males than in females. How so? When in your mind does it stop being belly dance and become something else? You say that in your mind it is impossible for you to do anything that is feminine because you are a male. The fact is that no one is either all female or male. We all have varying degrees of hormones and other elements that make us both male and female. This is only a suggestion.... perhaps it is some feminine part of your nature that makes the dance appeal to you as a personal performance art...??? And, actually on many levels we ARE common animals, our sexuality included. For that matter, animals as well as humans have defining places in their societies, do indeed reason out problems, experience political and cultural elements within their species, herd, family, gender and age. What's the big difference between us and them besides the opposable thumb?? Please do not so easily dismiss the animal kingdom or put yourself so far above it. They dance, too, you know and probably for many of the same reasons we do...yes... at the "biological level". And animals can sometimes choose what they want to be more than we can...ask the little child chained to the weaving machine in Iran or the 7 year old Thai prostitue or the American drug addict. Most of the "experts" with whom I have spoken do agree that belly dance is a relatively new dance style, about 100 or so years old, and point to Badia Masabni as the specific personality who brought the dance to the entertainment stage. I agree that she brought it to the public in Egypt and that she had counterparts in Turkey and Lebanon, but I also feel that it was developing in urban communities before she did so. So...you see, it is pretty easy to trace the dance and meaning, actually. And in this case precedent and provenance have everything to do with what the dance is... and many of its developers are still alive today. There is literally no such thing as "The ancient art of belly dance". For more on what Arab dancers say about this, see ARAMCO World Magazine, Sept/ Oct, 1971, "La Danse du Ventra", by Elias Antar, p. 4. Zorba, you did not offend me in any way, and you also make me think my thoughts through and examine why I think them!! I appreciate our conversations very much because you present a viewpoint without malice and with the occasional good wit. Dear Rico, I think I understand then that men being the first dancers is your own theory? Just because women did not dance at men's ceremonies does not mean that they did not dance at their own... and I am not sure that there is any evidence that women were not Shamans too in many societies and perhaps did their own dancing. My own personal opinion is that men and women, as in a whole bunch of other speicies, danced even before they were conscious of being men and women, if we speak in term of paleolithic. I believe it is a biological function of the human being, just as it is in some birds and other species. I think all primates dance and we just don't recognize it in others yet. But, that is my thepory and not a fact. Dear DaVid, I agree that that it is impossible to judge any dancers by any others, whether they be male or female. I have seen hideous and beautiful in both genders. I can honestly say that one of my favorite dancers ever is male. Regards to you all, A'isha

08-18-2006, 04:16 PM	#24 (permalink)
Moon V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,627	I, too, believe gender is only biological (so including the fact that men are often stronger than women and women having another pelvis shape than men, etc.) and I also believe dance is much, much more than movement only and emotions play an important role. I know there are people who believe that there are such things as "male emotions" and "female emotions", or "male behaviour" and "female behaviour", but I believe that, when looking at emotions and behaviour, there is no such thing as "male" and "female", these aspects differ from person to person, but can be, and often are more or less influenced by culture. So my opinion is, when someone really "feels" the dance and knows what he/she is doing, he/she can be a great dancers. And as I don't believe emotions are gender specific, I think both men and women can be great bellydancers! I think A'isha is right by saying most Middle Eastern men don't really accept male dancers, but I have the idea many Europian and American men feel the same about male dancers (and many women too!). Maybe because they're in the minority, maybe they still have to get used to it. But I think opinions can change, however it probably won't change very fast and some people will never accept it, but that's ok. (By the way I'm curious, does any of you know what Middle Eastern women think of male bellydancers?)

08-19-2006, 06:34 AM	#29 (permalink)
DaVidofScandinavia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 33	Universal expression of movement - so true, A'isha. That's what I've been trying to express, but I guess I expressed myself a bit wrong by saying "movement has no gender". I intended to say that movement itself is universal As far as personal preferences in regard to male performers and what men should and shouldn't do...well, what can I say, you cant win'em all. And I never intended to either. I think what is highly relevant to take notice of is that not all male dancers are trained the same way, have the same technical background, have the same expression, nor present themselves the same. You can not generalize and say that you prefer not to see male dancers perform. It's like saying that you dont want to see female bellydancers because they're all prostitutes and raunchy. We all know that's not a fact and neither is it a fact that all male dancers shouldnt perform. I strongly contest the idea of generalizing between what even just two male dancers present. We are way different from each other - and I know that several colleagues of mine out there would be highly offended if you equated what I do and they do. And I certainly feel the same way visa versa from a dance philosophic point of view. DaVid