Aisha Azar

Dear DaVid,
As you know I am very supportive of those male dancers who are doing what they can to uphold the integrity of the art form. I wish there were more like you and Aziz, who also did not feel the need to justify his gender as a dancer.
I believe there have been male belly dancers as long as there has been belly dance, regardless of their social standing. The interesting thing is that few Arabs seem to acknowlegdge this or accept it.
I am thrilled that we will soon be sharing the stage!
Regards,
A'isha

DaVidofScandinavia

Awwww, you are too sweet. I just do the little I can and if that contribution makes any sort of difference or is benificial in any way - I am thrilled about it.

I cant wait to share a stage with you either... to think that we'll finally meet after 5 years! Yay!

DaVid

Hadassah

A'isha - I noticed a lot of Latin in Raffa still - he even performed a latin piece as his first solo. I think he is afraid of being too feminine when he dances, because he explained to a male dancer at the workshop that he "does not want to look like a woman, soft, when he dances". there is a lot of briskness and staccato to his moves, but they are nice, just the same. He had most of us in a swoon.

DaVid - I wish I could attend your workshop! I'm sure you're a fantastic dancer,as our A'isha is having you! Congrats...

Recnadocir

And what is the "integrity of the art form?" Does this require only dancing to Middle Eastern music...or assuming an Arabic sounding stage name...or only wearing costumes that are "Arabic?"

I feel that the deepest artistic integrity requires being true to ones' self. The choices of music, costume, stage name, whether to fuse movement or not, these are all the individual's right to choose, as an artist. If one's personal truth is that he or she conform to tradition, then that is no less and no more truth, than another's deepest feelings which guide them to not conform with tradition.

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Recnadocir

Aisha may be very supportive of male dancers, for all I know. It is the "feminine essence" comment that I think indicates some lingering disregard, as if it is more a case of tolerating male dancers, since we won't go away, then truly accepting us as equals. Let me explain it in terms similar to yours in your previous post, which I wholeheartedly agree with:

When I dance, I'm not thinking, "I'm a man doing belly dance." Or, "I'm getting in touch with my feminine side." I'm just me, dancing! If movement looks different, because my hips are a bit differently structured, I don't have feminine mammary appendages, etc. so what? Movement looks different from one female to the next, too. Movement is movement, whether it's from France or Babylonia or Mars. And if one wants to maintain some strict cultural context with one's movement, great. If one doesn't, great. How boring it would be if everyone followed some strict protocol in dance, or conversely, if no one did!

I call Aisha Azar on this because if she is truly supportive of males dancing, comments like "feminine essence" are inconsistent. The only essence is human, and the individual soul of the dancer.

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Aisha Azar

Dear Rico,
Integrity in the art form does indeed mean being true to the meaning, feeling essence, movement etc. in that particular art form. It is like not adding hip-hop to ballet and then claiming it is still ballet. It is like watching Savage Jazz and understanding that these people KNOW jazz dance and live by it, without feeling the need to make it into something it is not. The meaning of integrity has to do with being true to many elements of the art, not just egotistically to oneself.

The "deepest artistic integrity" may involve in part, being true to oneself. However, it should also involve being true enough in what one is doing not to mislabel it just because that is more convenient than admitting that one is creating a new kind of art. The deepest artistic integrity also involves being true to the art that you claim to be doing. Art is not "all about me". It is about many other things, including the art itself and the people from whence it springs.

I stand proudly by my statement that belly dance is a feminine essenced dance form. There are also male essenced forms and I have no issue with saying that, or standing by it, either. Takhtib, Arda, certain movements in Debke, singing Jelseh, etc. This does not make me prejudiced, it makes me aware culturally and ethnically of what is going on in the dance world for which I claim loyalty and love.

Factual statements are not prejudiced. They real information. Would I be getting the same flack from you if I said Arda is a male essenced dance?? Believe me when I tell you that if a woman was seen dancing it, the Arabs would feel the same way that they feel about male belly dancers. This is not prejudice on my part. It is merely a statement of fact. My own feelings and opinions on the subject are not part of the equation here. I can step out of my own worldview for a moment and try to look at the bigger picture.

As for my attitude toward male dancers, I think the fact that two of the most admired dancers in America have hired me to coach them speaks for itself. These are intelligent men. They know that I am not the least bit condescending to male dancers and that my concern is... yes, "integrity in the dance". That is why, out of all the people they COULD have hired, they hired me.

BTW: I would still like to have information on paleolicithic evidence that shows men were the first dancers.

Regards,
A'isha

Zorba

Interesting conversation. I do agree with DaVid/Reco that "movement has no gender". If my body can move "that way", well, then its "masculine" as its a male body!

Period. I don't give a red rats rolling rectum what culture, pseudo- or otherwise dictates. Gender is biological.

And DaVid brings up an important point - Belly Dance is *NOT* folk dance.

I'll also interject that one of my tenets has always been that there is "no such thing" as a so-called "masculine" form of Belly Dance - and that I detest masculizations. It would seem that all here agree - but that's a recent development. When I first started harping on this point several years ago, I was looked upon like I had three heads by many - not necessarily anyone here. But I've heard enough about masculization to last me a lifetime - not only from websites (such as that much-quoted load of BS on bdancer.com), but from (some) male dancers themselves. I was in a workshop with a very well known, respected male dancer. This particular guy I respect VERY much, but nonetheless, he inserted several masculinzations into the choeography he was teaching, telling the two males in the class to do things different than the gals in a couple of places. An overhead hand clap instead of a graceful hands back to back overhead for instance. Blah, blah.

On-line discussions on this subject used to be full of stuff like this - but not so much any more. We're making progress...

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-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aisha Azar

Dear Zorba,
Actually, there are scientists that would disagree that "movement has no gender". Although I can not remember much about it since it happened years ago, there is something about having both men and women lift a chair into their bodies from a certain poasition. It is something women can do but men can not, because the sexes balance differently through the upper portion of their bodies.
There are also differences in movement between males and females in more subtle ways. For example, while we both do walk, there is probably a difference in the mechanics of walking since in general women are broad through the pelvis and men through the shoulders. ( Notice the term "general, here"), which gives us different balance points in our normal gaits.
While, as you stated, gender IS biological, how gender is translated is definately cultural. At the same time there are things that have universal meaning. No one, for example, tips their pelvis back and forth to mean they are now going to do the dishes.
Gender is biological, but how it translates from culture to culture is not biological. I am a person who believes that dance is a biological urge, but that this translates differently from culture to culture, as does the biological need to eat, to have sex, to eliminate waste, etc. The same urges drive us all, but how we deal with those urges has everything to do with things outside the biological.
Regards,
A'isha

Recnadocir

[quote=Zorba;4616]Interesting conversation. I do agree with DaVid/Reco that "movement has no gender". If my body can move "that way", well, then its "masculine" as its a male body!
QUOTE]

Good point Zorba, gets right to the illogic of arguing that belly dance is feminine in essence. If it were, males would not be able to dance it, or perform it, unless they were effeminate.

Male and female microscopic muscular anatomy and physiology and biomechanics are exactly the same. If they were not, I think the gigantic textbook of the National Association of Sports Medicine, which I am currently studying, would state so. The only significant difference in male and female muscular anatomy I am aware of is in muscle hypertrophy.

I've seen male ballet dancers move with great breath, softness, nuance and suppleness. In fact, professional male ballet dancers must have these movement qualities to succeed. They must also be able to move very strongly, with dynamic range. As must great female ballet dancers.

I believe that the qualities of great dancers are breath, being able to move bound as well as unbound, being able to move with strength as well as softness, to move staccato and legato, allegro and adagio, regardless of dance style and regardless of gender.

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Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!

Aisha Azar

[quote=Recnadocir;4673]Dear Rico,
If dance were only about movement, Zorba, might, and I mean MIGHT be correct. But dance is more than movement as we all know. Dance is about a combination of elements, and rarely if ever about movement alone. Dance is a wholistic expression, not a movement exercise.

To state that male and female biomechanics are exactly the same is too wrong for sure. How many males have ever had their bones soften so that their pelvises would widen to give birth? There are also differences in the pelvic cradle and all sorts of other differences. There are also differences, I believe in muscularity, though I am no expert there. Men and women of the same size usually will find that the male is stronger. Forensic anthrpopologists can often tell by hyoid bones and other bits of bone whether or not some little piece of bone belonged to a male or female. There are LOTS of differences between us that migth affect how we move, never mind how culture influences dance. Males and females are not exactly alike and that's all there is to it.
The qualities of great dancers also have to do with accurately protraying what they are trying to portray. If they are cold, unnattached and do not understand what they are doing, then they are not great dancers, no matter what their physical abilities. Once again and with feeling : DANCE IS MORE THAN MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am begnning to have an epiphany about why there is such a problem with people understanding the dance from a Middle Eastern viewpoint. So many people are totally immersed in the "movement" thing and neglect other aspects of the dance,much to its detriment.
\
Regards,
A'isha
PS: Still waiting on that paleolithic reference.