Tarik Sultan

I found this article and decided to share it with the forum. It has nothing to do with Middle Eastern Dance, but does deal with the issue of the differences between the way men and women present themselves on stage in dance. I find it very interesting that this man raised all the same issues that we have discussed on this forum with regards to male dance.

Read it and share your thoughts.

Tarik

http://blog.danceruniverse.com/blog/.../13/171958/704

da Sage

My immediate thought...what if the boy was transgender? Kids are making up their minds about that earlier and earlier these days...

Second thought, I wouldn't know how to teach "male modifications", but I would probably try to experiment with a male student on presentation. I guess it is hard if you don't know the tricks from experience!

Zorba

Well, I wasn't there, didn't see it, so I don't know. Dancing as a pastiche of either gender doesn't do it - it sounds like the writer wants him (the dancer in question) to not dance like a pastiche of a girl - but instead to dance like a pastiche of a boy. It sounds a lot like the same tired old rulebooks. Whatever. Dance like yourself, and to H*ll with the rules...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik and Forum,
First, I have said here before that being gay is NOT the same thing as being a woman. Most of the gay men I know are not interested in being women in the least. They are interested in having the freedom to be gay without fear of hostility. Secondly, this article seemed to me to be overly concerned with boys not appearing to be gay. And what if they ARE gay? What is the message then? That they should not act like who and what they are, but conform to the rules that suit the writer? Third, this writer would probably see belly dancing males as gay whether or not they are, with his attitude, and this attitude is the one that prevails with most people in the Middle East, like it or not, regardless of the sexual preferences of the male dancers. Like someone said to me about Tito, even if he has two wives, people still will think he is gay. Can we please stop confusing homosexuality with femaleness? They are not the same.
Regards,
A'isha

Brea

I agree with A'isha, Zorba, and da Sage on the following points:

Zorba- you know how I feel about 'gendered' anything.

Da Sage- I have myself raised the thought of the transgendered dancer.

A'isha- true, homosexuality does not equal femaleness.

Tarik, thanks for this article. I think that the most important thing is that people realize the dance is unisex; however, do you think that by stating there is a 'masculine' version of the dance you may be falling into the categorization that Stefan embraces? I realize personally that is not what you meant in your post on that site, but perhaps the people reading that site will not be able to place your comments in context? Just a thought.

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www.breamorgiane.com

Tarik Sultan

Yes but you can't get away from the fact that in most cultures there are gener roles. For example, you also do Greek folk dance. When you do, you wear the clothes that are gender specific. Isn't this a pastiche? Why can't you wear the same type of vest and jewlery that the women do? As we all know, Oriental dance was developed with a certain feminine ideal in mind. Is this a pastiche? Would it be better if from now on women stoped wearing make up and jewlery? How about all that long hair, wouldn't a crew cut be better? Hey, men are allowed to go topless, so why shouldn't women have the same right? The point I'm trying to make is there is a line between being male or female and being caricatures. In our modern civilization, we have very definate opinions about how men and women should adorn and present themselves.

Tarik Sultan

You are absolutely right. Homosexuality is about sexual preference, not a man wanting to be a woman. Most gay men are very masculine, but the general perception of most people, or misperception, is that gay men want to be women. I think the main point of the blog was that men who dance should not present themselves in a way that looks like he's trying to immitate a woman.

You do have a very valid point, but let's face it, in the performing arts there is a very real element of exclusion. Lets look at our dance for example in the context of your question. What if a girl wants to be a dancer, but she is a very butch lesbian? She doesn't wear make up, she has a crew cut and she feels far more comfortable wearing pants than a skirt. Is she going to find acceptance from the general public as an Oriental Dancer? She doesn't conform to the accepted notion of "Femininity", yet is she not still a woman?

I think this is part of the point exactly. In the Middle East as in most of America, most people DO confuses male homosexuality with femaleness, which it is clearly not.

As for how male dancers, middle eastern or otherwise, are perceived, I see a paralell. First thing is that the boy was wearing a girls costume, second, there were very sexually explicit lyrics being sung by a female singer and he was acting them out, in other words, acting like the female sex object, thirdly, he was moving and gesturing in ways that men in our culture do not move and gesture. It was inappropriate on many levels. We have seen similar examples in our own community where male dancers wore costumes that were in very poor taste.


Dance in general is a female dominated profession and since women are seen as being inferior to men, so too are their professions deemed less prestigious. Therefroe, men who engage in such professions are seen as being less respectable and worthy of ridecule.

The problem is the first one out the gate is always going to bare the brunt of the negative stereotypical expectations. This is certainly the case with Oriental dancers whether they be male or female. There are things about them that defy the expected gender roles of the larger society. Therefore, a woman showing herself in public is going against the expected norms and therefore is assumed to be of a certain character, whether or not she is. A man who engages in a female dominated profession will have certain assumptions made about his character, whether they are true or not. What is required in order to change this misunderstanding, is to see as many people in those roles as possible who do not conform to the negative stereotypes. In time people come to realize that the assumption is not true.

Tarik Sultan

Dear Brea:

While I do believe that the basic structure of the dance, that is, the movement vocabulary is unisex, I am aware that there is a difference between the way those movements are executed between men and women. The dance is about more than the movements. I see them as being the bare bones of the dance, the flesh and blood on those bones are the emotions, gestures and other aspects of personality and non verbal communication that gives it its character. For instance, looking at the video clip I showed in a post past of Sa'ad dancing with Dina, even when they are both doing the exact same movement, there is a difference in the quality of that movement when they both do it. At no point does Sa'ad look like he is immitating Dina. He is undenialbly male in his execution feeling and mannerisms. It is a very far cry from the grotesque posturings in Stefan's article. I am aware that there is the possability for misunderstanding, which is why I took the time to explain the historical and cultural context, as well as including video links of the interview on Egyptian social dance and examples of men doing social dance as well.
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Roses are red, violets are blue, deserts are dry and crusty and my feet are too. Time to get a pedicure! (Does that make me gay?)

Zorba

Yawn - yea I know. I ignore 99% of all that, even in my mundane life. If it doesn't make sense to me (and most of it doesn't), I'm inclined to ignore it.

Both the beauty and the curse of being a male Belly Dancer is that there are essentially no role models. That's great - that makes it easier for us to define ourselves. I've seen dancers like Stefan's ideal - some of them are very well known. No thanks. On the other hand, the curse of it is the same: potential (male) dancers are confused as to what they should be/do, so the void gets filled by the Stephans and the Ankhs of the world making arbitrary rulebooks. If it works for them, fine - just don't present it as gospel. Conversely, my own approach is my own approach; I don't expect it to necessarily work for anyone else.

Your comment to Brea about Sa'ad and Dina: I haven't seen the clip, etc, etc, so I can only comment in a general manner. I'm 99.9999% certain that Sa'ad comes across as a guy - not because he's trying to - but rather because he IS one. He's built like a guy, he therefore can only move like one. The guys that can move like gals - if their body structure allows it, why not? The point I'm trying (badly, no doubt) to make (I'm tired right now, off to a show and workshop in Seattle in the AM) is that each person MUST dance true to themselves! The rest of it doesn't matter. If the dancer is dancing from their heart and soul, I don't care what "gender" they appear to be! If they are dancing from their heart and soul, they CANNOT be a pastiche.

If they're trying to conform to someone's idea of "masculinity" or "femininity" that is incompatible with their core being - it turns into a pastiche and looks fake as all get out.

I don't define my dancing as either masculine nor feminine - just as me (for better or worse). And I can only speak for myself - but I know fake when I see it, and so do you.

As for Greek dance - it underlines the arbitrariness of "Gender Roles" and "Societal expectations" - the men traditionally wear skirts!

I'm babbling, I'm off for bed...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

lizaj

It's a poorer world that does not permit men and women to take on the nuaances of each other's dances at times. It is irrelevent wether they are gay or not, transexual or not.
Singing? Do not some men sing higher up the scale than others and some women sing lower. Because I am a contralto does that mean I am singing like a man...I think not.
If I dance a manly version of Saidi, does that make me less of a woman...?
It's called adding a spice to life.
I had a work colleague with a cacklin' laugh like a old woman ( we used to tell him) and he sang deep bass. He also had long slender hands ( mine look like a docker's) but was as heterosexual as they come.

Wow betide the day when Khaled stops dancing in a more womanly style of orientale than some...I'll have to stop learning from him and loving his every move.