Zorba

I'm not sure who wrote this:
Try to stop me! I don't wear a bra - as that *IS* feminine - its biology, its real. But as skirts go, when the occasion calls for one, I wear one.

I don't do solos in one, as I figure my presence onstage is enough to fry some audience member's brains as it is (thus tying into Tarik's thing about conforming, etc) - but when my instructor started teaching an Andalusian skirt dance - I wasn't gonna be left out of the fun! And yes, I perform it with the gals.

A fun story. I was in an Alexandra King workshop a number of years ago - a "Gypsy Style" workshop. It turned out that for whatever reason, I was best in the class at skirtwork. Alexandra wanted to demonstrate something with two dancers - so she called me (of all people) to the front of the class to help her. She said "Don't worry, I won't embarrass you". I reached down, spread my 21 yard "Gypsy" skirt wide and replied "Do I *LOOK* like I can be embarrassed?" to the ensuing hilarity of the class!

My point is, at least in MY context, the skirt is a unisex garment. I'm not a sissy, I'm not a transvestite, I'm just a guy in a skirt. Audiences are fascinated! I guess its my inherent male attitude, I dunno...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Zorba

Yea, I understand - I just don't "get it". The dance is what it is. You can't change people's minds, why try? I enjoy Belly Dancing - I really don't give a rolling red rat's rectum what others think of me as a result. T'ell with 'em!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Tarik Sultan

You didn't answer the question.

da Sage

The skirt is one thing. Movement quality is another. I've seen LOTS of men in skirts, and how they move totally creates context. "Inherent male attitude" generally manifests itself in movement. And here we are, back at the beginning again...

Tarik Sultan

Dear A'isha darling:


Tarik:
Change does not happen over night, how can it? Generations of assumptions and conditioned responses do not just go away just because someone presents a new truth or new perspective. People didn't start believing that the Earth moved around the Sun just because Galleleo discovered that it did. In fact, he almost lost his life. The point is that we as artists must not allow ourselves to internalize the baggage and hold firm to our convictions of who we are and what we are doing and why we are doing it.

A.writes- What do you consider to be the "baggage" of this dance? I am not sure how this applies here. The baggage is usually very much what the dance is about to begin with when we are discussing the cultural environments of the dance.
[/quote]

Being considered a poor uneducated low life, a whore, a sexual deviant an amoral person, just because one is a dancer. That baggage. It's one thing to understand that that is the image a lot of people will have of you and understand the reasons why given the context of the cultural conditioning in the society, It's a quite other thing to start thinking of yourself in those terms.

The opinion of what any person may or may not think of me, has nothing to do with my reality. As to whether that is what the dance is about? I guess it depends on the individual. The dancers I know in Egypt do not think that is what the dance is about or what they are about and do feel a sense of annoyance at this misunderstanding, even though they know the reasons why people misperceive them. The dance is a wonderful expression of the human spirit. I choose to focus my energies on the positive aspects of it rather than focus on the dysfunctional baggae. Every house has a septic tank. I'd rather spend my time in the living room on the nice couch rather than in the cellar sucking up methane fumes that's all. I know where the sewer is, I just choose not to hang out there.

It's not Ballet, but there is no reason why it can't be presented on a concert stage. It already has been in Egypt, Lebanon and even Turkey. It's been taken out of the nightclubs and presented on television programs. If the Egyptians do not feel there is any limitation as to where the dance can be presented, why should we? So when we present the dance on our concert stages, we are not doing anything that has not been done before. We are just showing it to the larger public who has maybe never seen it before, or never seen it in a setting other than a night club. That is one of the strengths of the dance. It is incredibly adaptive. It can be done in a living room for a family party, a banquet hall, ballroom, television stage, nightclub or a concert stage. So it's not true that it isn't a concert dance. When it is done on stage, it is. It depends on the context within which it is done.

A'isha darling, the second a guy takes to the stage as a dancer, unless he's doing tanoura, it's assumed he is gay, just keeping it on the wraps. If this were not the case, why would rich guys be going back stage after the show to "meet" the boys? HELLOOO! This isn't to say that all of them are, but just as in the West, a lot of them are. So the issue is not their presumed sexuality, its wether or not they present themselves in a way that they are recognized as men or if they present themselves in a way that suggests that they are trying to immitate a woman.

For myself and all of the Egyptian Oriental dancers I know, except one, NONE of us wants to present an image that is perceived as feminine. We want to be recognized as men. Not half and half. We are full aware of what people may say, what they may think. We are determined not to lower ourselfes to their lowered expectations. It is important to us that we maintain our dignity and if anyone dares to bring their junk to our faces, we will put them in their places by word or deed if neccessary.

I'll put it to you this way, I know how some people may feel, what they may think, but don't for a second get it twisted, I'm a man 100% and the few times someone has tried to test me, they were put in their places pronto. As a dancer, male or female, you are going to have people who will try to test you and call you out your name. You have to be ready to put them in THEIR place.

CAse in point, a friend of mine in Canada did a show for a local Arab students union at the community collage. After the show this girl in hejab comes up to her and say's "Aren't you ashamed to be showing your body like that in public? You should be ashamed of yourself, you're so vulgar"! With the sweetest smile on her face my friend said to her, "BITCH! Before you tell me anything, you need to learn about your religion and how a propper muslim woman is supposed to dress in public because your pants are so damn tight I can see your drawz and I know they're white and its a THONG"!

Who we are and who anyone THINKS we are are two things. Who and what anyone may think I am is one thing, but don't get it twisted, WHO I AM is something quite different and it won't change.

So you mean to tell me that if you had a student who wanted to do a Saidi Raks al Assaya, or two guys who wanted to do a takhtiyb, you would let them go out there swinging sequine covered sticks? If you say him in rehersal wearing a tarha and mandil would you let him go out there like that or would you explain to him what propper costuming for a man is?

Look, I can't control what people may assume about my sexuality. I've had guys tell me they heard people saying I must be gay, I've had guys tell me to my face they think I'm gay. My reply is to look them in the face and ask them, "DID YOU &*^% ME"? "Do you know anyone who has *&)^% me"? Of course the answer is no. "So then, until one of those things changes, you don't know what you're talking about do you"? YEs it's raw, but in this business, when you are dealing with the general public, people in all kinds of states of sobriety and emotional issues, you have to be tough as nails.

I've been dancing for over 20yrs. The success I have had is because regardless of what they may think of me, what no one can deny, is i know what I am doing, I present myself with dignity and respect, and treat my audience with the same and when they look at me THEY KNOW I'M A MAN.
This is what I've been told consistantly by men who were not my friends, and who were not looking for sex, but were starngers in my audience who went out of their way to tell me what they think. If I can dance in a room full of crusty ass Egyptian Baladi guys, wearing red beads and sequines and not only NOT get my ass kicked, and not have anyone walk out of my show, but actually give me more applause then they did the girls, I must be doing something right.

BEing perceived as a homosexual is one thing, looking like a bad caricature is quite something else. GAy or straight, be a man, that means be of strong character and present yourself with respect. For male dancers, we already have an uphill battle being taken seriously as artists who have a right to perform. Adding the gender bening wars is another battle. I prefere to fight one battle at a time.

Zorba

Oh probably. You certainly cannot get "Male attitude" by following a bunch of rulebooks. And you cannot get a "real" dance by NOT dancing true to yourself. So it doesn't matter IF, and only IF, you dance as YOURSELF.

Sez here anyway - I'm up too late again...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Tarik Sultan

Yes, but what kind of skirt and what is the context within which it's being worn? For instance, there are many modern dance companies where the guys will wear skirts because its about creating shapes and patterns, there are traditional dances where tghe skirt is part of the costume, there are dances like the Kochecks or some Rajestani dances where its a costume piece and is used to create dramatic. I've also seen the same thing in Tibet and Hatian Voddon dances.

The thing is in our cultural context there are there's a big difference between a modern dance number a traditional dance and a man wearing articles of clothing that are specifically female, unless he's doing a drag number.

I think you made a good point earlier when you said that one of the main issues with the boy in the article, is that his presentation will effect his ability to get work. Here we have another example of context. If a person's source of income is not based on their dance activities then it's less of an issue. Most likely they are dancing in student showcases, haflas or seminar shows where the viewing audience is made up of the dance community. In such cases, the individual is known and accepted by everyone. Once you go beyond that and start dealing with the general public, things change.

If you are putting on a show and you are depending on the general population for patronage, then it does become an issue. How will they receive the sight of a man who bends gender rules? In the scope of things, IT REALLY SHOULDN'T MATTER. Logically, why should it? But when we are dealing with people emotions quite often overrides logic. Sexulaity pushes a lot of people's buttons.


In previous years, a very famous male dancer had visited Egypt with his female partner. They were scheduled to do a number on a popular television show, but when he came out in his costume, the producers flied out. His costume was too feminine and their appearance was scratched. Rakia had been involved in some way and was thouroughly embarrased. That incedent and one other almost put the kabash on men being able to perform at Ahlan Wa Sahlan.

The year before I went to my first Ahlan Wa Sahlan Festival, men had been banned from participating in the stage performances. Why? because the government agencies were all over Rakia and the festival to make sure she was legit and not running a convention of whores. I mean this litterally! Oneof the participants was a guy, who I've seen in the States. He wears eye shadow, cherry red lipstick painted nails and see-through harem pants. He's alo a senior citizen and bald. Ever seen one of those cartoons of an old drag queen without his wig? Rakia had to turn off his music before he even got on stage because she was catching hell. The next year, the rule was for male dancers, no bare skin. Morocco had done a lot of work speaking with Rakia about the issue. I danced in two numbers a solo and a duet with Morocco. My first number was the Shisha dance, which is totally covered the duet was my Oriental costume with the net shirt. I earned the respect of Rakia's and the other teachers there because I presented myself as a man. As they put it, when they saw me on stage there was no boubt that I was a man and respected myself as such. Not only that, but there was no trouble from the authorities. The point here is that it was a big deal because her name and the success of the festival was resting on her adamant struggle for the government authorities and arts community to recognize that the dance is an art and what she was doing was legit.

If your income is derived entierly or in part from your art then you have to take into consideration your marketability. Image is everything, unfortunately in many cases more than talent. So as you pointed out, in this article part of what was going on was the issue of this young man being able to get work if he was serious about a career in dance.

Zorba

A few random thoughts:

In the final analysis, every dancer, male or female, must make their own way, and their own choices. Locality plays into it also. The west coast isn't the tight laced east coast, and certainly isn't the backwards and repressed middle east. My main point in all these discussions is that I'm very much against rulebooks; be they Stephan's, Ankh's, your's - or mine.

Frankly, I don't give a rolling red rat's rump if some ignoramus thinks I'm gay - that's their problem, not mine. As it turns out, in my locale anyway, about 50% of the guys think I'm gay - along with every other male dancer in the show (we've had as many as 4 at once), some of whom ARE gay. The other 50 percent of the guys, and 99% of the gals, absolutely love me, bare skin, sequins and all. They tell me they find me masculine - and I violate all the various rulebooks that people keep trying to force onto me. I almost have to beat the women off of me with a stick at times. As a faithful husband of 24 years, I find this situation with what I call "Feral Women" to be quite annoying...

The whole "BE A MAN" crapola is what I've been hearing all my life - and I'm sick of it. Being "A MAN" is first and foremost being true to yourself and doing what you damn well please: "Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes". Come to think of it, that's a good attitude for women too. I reserve the right to define myself as MYSELF, not as others would try to define me. I take what makes logical sense, and leave the rest.

I was in a local parade once, 3/4 shimmying my way down the street in my "plenty of skin showing but by no means vulgar" costume, and had one guy just go nuts! It was obvious that I was "THE MAN" in his eyes because I was A) surrounded by beautiful women, and B) Dared to go where few will. Granted, he was missing the point of where I'm *really* coming from (Love of my artform), but he obviously found me "masculine" - bare skin, sequins and all.

OTOH, I understand where Tarik is coming from - I really do. He's right, if a given dancer wants to maximize their marketability, they must conform to other's expectations - the problem with that is that said expectations vary widely, especially when you're a male Belly Dancer! FOR MYSELF: I wouldn't even WANT to dance at AWS or other venue where I didn't have the FREEDOM to be myself. I'm an American, for better or worse - and will hold onto as much of my Goddess given freedome as I can. If I tried to "conform", it would ruin the dance - and life - for me. This said - I have MORE than enough performance opportunities to keep me busy, and I have enough people who "get" my presentation to keep me happy.

I think a lot of people are won over simply by attitude - not the movements, not the costuming. I always do Raks al Assayah, never Tathib - I'm a "high cabaret" dancer, not a folkloric dancer (I know, I know, let's not get this into a hair splitting semantic argument!) - and Assayah is what cabaret dancers do. The GP audience doesn't know the difference, they just see a dancer twirling a cane. The dance community "gets it", and the few middle easterners either detest me for the simple fact that I'm a male; or they love me because I'm doing their dance. That last division is mainly age related - the older ones generally don't like me, the younger ones do. That said, I've been able to win more than one older middle eastern guy over.

I also have a bit of the "Tribal Attitude" - I'm dancing MY way for MY joy. YOU are privileged to watch. YOU will NOT take away MY joy. It just might be that attitude is what people find so-called "masculine" in my dance, despite my ignoring the rulebooks - I dunno. *shrug*

I can't speak for the "feminine" dancers that Tarik talks about - I haven't seen them. I'd be looking to see if they were "real", were true to themselves. Its hard (for me) to figure that out from a video - I'd have to see them in person, feel their energy, blah, blah, blah...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Caroline_afifi

No one should be bullied into conforming into a stereotype of their gender.
However, freedom doesnt come without hassle and in some places, the death penalty. Who gives a f*** if a dancer is gay or not? how dare people make judgements based on sexuality.
The crux is, In Egypt there are real security issues in relation to the dance festivals. Only an idiot would not realise they they would be a prime target of terrorism. Wearing make-up and transparent costumes was not even allowed in the film the Yacoubien Building. The gay character had changed alot from the book version. Men are Ok doing mens dance there but anything else gets raised eyebrow. A designer friend of mine danced beledi at a club on my birthday... you could have heard a pin drop.
Having said this, women dancers also have an obligation to behave themselves (any where in the world actually).

Salome

Tarik rocks!