Boys shall be boys...and should dance like it. - Page 2

Aisha Azar · 03-05-2008, 02:24 PM

DEar Tarik,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Dance in general is a female dominated profession and since women are seen as being inferior to men, so too are their professions deemed less prestigious. Therefroe, men who engage in such professions are seen as being less respectable and worthy of ridecule.

A. writes- And if a man so chooses to go into the profession knowing this, it seems to me that he is not in the position to change the dance to suit HIS needs unless he is willing to admit that this is what he is doing. since he is KNOWINGLY choosing a profession that will lead to this kind of prejudice, he needs to prepare himself for that and not merely say it is not right. Apparently in the eyes of generations of Egyptian, it IS the way they think. If a man knows that and still makes the choice to be a professional dancer, then he is also accepting the baggage, just as women must. People are not going to begin to think differently, just because some MAN decided to dance. This does not automatically elevate the position of the dance. Instead it denigrates the man according to the society in which the dance originated.

The problem is the first one out the gate is always going to bare the brunt of the negative stereotypical expectations. This is certainly the case with Oriental dancers whether they be male or female. There are things about them that defy the expected gender roles of the larger society. Therefore, a woman showing herself in public is going against the expected norms and therefore is assumed to be of a certain character, whether or not she is. A man who engages in a female dominated profession will have certain assumptions made about his character, whether they are true or not. What is required in order to change this misunderstanding, is to see as many people in those roles as possible who do not conform to the negative stereotypes. In time people come to realize that the assumption is not true.

A'isha writes- AND for men who indulge in the dance to not expect that everything should change just because MEN have now arrived on the scene. I am not saying that YOU feel this way, but some men do. They think THEY will bring legitimacy to the dance, when in reality they can not. On some levels part of the allure of the dance is its very illegitimacy and this may be true for both audiences and some of the performers, regardless of sexual preference.

Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 03-05-2008, 04:15 PM

A'isha:

What do you mean by "legitimacy"? Its a loaded word, that is often meaningless in the ultimate sense. "If you want legitimacy, go to church". Clarification please...

Tarik Sultan · 03-05-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

DEar Tarik,

A'isha darling:

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Dance in general is a female dominated profession and since women are seen as being inferior to men, so too are their professions deemed less prestigious. Therefroe, men who engage in such professions are seen as being less respectable and worthy of ridecule.

A. writes- And if a man so chooses to go into the profession knowing this, it seems to me that he is not in the position to change the dance to suit HIS needs unless he is willing to admit that this is what he is doing. since he is KNOWINGLY choosing a profession that will lead to this kind of prejudice, he needs to prepare himself for that and not merely say it is not right. Apparently in the eyes of generations of Egyptian, it IS the way they think. If a man knows that and still makes the choice to be a professional dancer, then he is also accepting the baggage, just as women must. People are not going to begin to think differently, just because some MAN decided to dance. This does not automatically elevate the position of the dance. Instead it denigrates the man according to the society in which the dance originated.

Change does not happen over night, how can it? Generations of assumptions and conditioned responses do not just go away just because someone presents a new truth or new perspective. People didn't start believing that the Earth moved around the Sun just because Galleleo discovered that it did. In fact, he almost lost his life. The point is that we as artists must not allow ourselves to internalize the baggage and hold firm to our convictions of who we are and what we are doing and why we are doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

The problem is the first one out the gate is always going to bare the brunt of the negative stereotypical expectations. This is certainly the case with Oriental dancers whether they be male or female. There are things about them that defy the expected gender roles of the larger society. Therefore, a woman showing herself in public is going against the expected norms and therefore is assumed to be of a certain character, whether or not she is. A man who engages in a female dominated profession will have certain assumptions made about his character, whether they are true or not. What is required in order to change this misunderstanding, is to see as many people in those roles as possible who do not conform to the negative stereotypes. In time people come to realize that the assumption is not true.
A'isha writes- AND for men who indulge in the dance to not expect that everything should change just because MEN have now arrived on the scene. I am not saying that YOU feel this way, but some men do. They think THEY will bring legitimacy to the dance, when in reality they can not. On some levels part of the allure of the dance is its very illegitimacy and this may be true for both audiences and some of the performers, regardless of sexual preference.

Regards,
A'isha

A'isha writes- AND for men who indulge in the dance to not expect that everything should change just because MEN have now arrived on the scene. I am not saying that YOU feel this way, but some men do. They think THEY will bring legitimacy to the dance, when in reality they can not.

I don't expect to give the dance legitimacy because I'm a guy, but I do think I bring legitimacy to it because I am a good performer who knows what he is doing and strives to show the dance at its best. My position has always been that its the combined efforts of all of us Middle Eastern, Western, male and female, who are responsible for the advances the dance now enjoys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

On some levels part of the allure of the dance is its very illegitimacy and this may be true for both audiences and some of the performers, regardless of sexual preference.

Regards,
A'isha

For some people, yes this is true, but for others its what keeps them away, Eastern and Western alike. While still there are those who perceive it as a matter of degrees. But I'd like to get back to the main thesis of blog and that is what is appropriate for male dancers on stage.

The thing about it is, I really don't see such a big difference between the way Western male dancers are perceived in this society and the way male dancers (Oriental or folk) are perceived in the East. In both cases, the assumption is that there is more than a 50 - 50 change the guy is gay. Its an assumption, but one every male dancer, no matter the genre knows and has to come to terms with in their own way. Therefore, the issue is not homosexuality persay, butwhether or not the performer presents himself as a man, or dresses and acts in a way that most people would consider being an immitation of a woman, or trying to immitate a woman. If you have a male student who wants to wear a woman's bedlah or skirt, is that okay? If he is making gestures that are ordinarily done by women, not men, is that okay? If he wanted to do a Melaya lef because he learned it with the rest of your students is that okay? Or do you have an obligation to explain to him what he should not do?

Aisha Azar · 03-05-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

A'isha:

What do you mean by "legitimacy"? Its a loaded word, that is often meaningless in the ultimate sense. "If you want legitimacy, go to church". Clarification please...

Dear Zorba,
Both men and women outside the culture think they can make this a respected or "legitimate" art form instead of accepting it as the kind of less than respectable entertainment that it is considered to be in countries of origin. It IS art, but changing its image is not what makes it so. I hope that heklps you to understand my meaning.

Brea · 03-05-2008, 04:58 PM

Hi,

I agree with Zorba, but he and I are probably (most of the time) on the same page as against gendering. I think that the reason that particular man looked like a man is because, as Zorba says, he IS a man. I really think that's all there is to it. I also think it's false to try to stuff yourself into a kind of dance based on some gender construct...especially if, when you are in the joy of the dance, you dance in a way that denies that. I think people should just dance and love it as long as they are not doing improper movements that might hurt themselves.

Secondly, I really have a hard time believing that this is the first time men have appeared on this scene. Certainly it's been several decades but I think that we can't say there were no male professional performers of this dance EVER. I think for equality to come in general we must accept both sexes in all things. The cycle must stop somewhere.

Aisha Azar · 03-05-2008, 05:00 PM

Dear Tarik,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

A'isha darling:

Change does not happen over night, how can it? Generations of assumptions and conditioned responses do not just go away just because someone presents a new truth or new perspective. People didn't start believing that the Earth moved around the Sun just because Galleleo discovered that it did. In fact, he almost lost his life. The point is that we as artists must not allow ourselves to internalize the baggage and hold firm to our convictions of who we are and what we are doing and why we are doing it.

A.writes- What do you consider to be the "baggage" of this dance? I am not sure how this applies here. The baggage is usually very much what the dance is about to begin with when we are discussing the cultural environments of the dance.

I don't expect to give the dance legitimacy because I'm a guy, but I do think I bring legitimacy to it because I am a good performer who knows what he is doing and strives to show the dance at its best. My position has always been that its the combined efforts of all of us Middle Eastern, Western, male and female, who are responsible for the advances the dance now enjoys.

A. writes- The dance is legitimate within confines. Sorry, but it has a whole different meaning and essence than ballet and is not a concert art. It is entertainment, pure and complicated.

For some people, yes this is true, but for others its what keeps them away, Eastern and Western alike. While still there are those who perceive it as a matter of degrees. But I'd like to get back to the main thesis of blog and that is what is appropriate for male dancers on stage.
The thing about it is, I really don't see such a big difference between the way Western male dancers are perceived in this society and the way male dancers (Oriental or folk) are perceived in the East. In both cases, the assumption is that there is more than a 50 - 50 change the guy is gay. Its an assumption, but one every male dancer, no matter the genre knows and has to come to terms with in their own way. Therefore, the issue is not homosexuality persay, butwhether or not the performer presents himself as a man, or dresses and acts in a way that most people would consider being an immitation of a woman, or trying to immitate a woman.

A'isha writes- And in Arab society, the moment that a guy taqkes the professional stage as a belly dancer, that is how he will be perceived by the people. this is the reality.

If you have a male student who wants to wear a woman's bedlah or skirt, is that okay? If he is making gestures that are ordinarily done by women, not men, is that okay? If he wanted to do a Melaya lef because he learned it with the rest of your students is that okay? Or do you have an obligation to explain to him what he should not do?

A'isha writes- It depends on who you are and what gives you the authority to decide he should not do it. If one is already engaging in behaviors that within the soceity, are womens' activties, then what is the difference?

Love, A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 03-05-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Yawn - yea I know. I ignore 99% of all that, even in my mundane life. If it doesn't make sense to me (and most of it doesn't), I'm inclined to ignore it.

Okay, I'll try to do this real quick and then I really have to do that pedicure!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Both the beauty and the curse of being a male Belly Dancer is that there are essentially no role models. That's great - that makes it easier for us to define ourselves. I've seen dancers like Stefan's ideal - some of them are very well known. No thanks. On the other hand, the curse of it is the same: potential (male) dancers are confused as to what they should be/do, so the void gets filled by the Stephans and the Ankhs of the world making arbitrary rulebooks. If it works for them, fine - just don't present it as gospel. Conversely, my own approach is my own approach; I don't expect it to necessarily work for anyone else.

Understood. But the whole question is one of dealing with the culture as it is. Its about the fact that men are underrepresented in dance in general and that we will not get more unless they see images of men they can relate to which overrides the fear of the stereotype. You are a world all onto yourself and that is fine. The issue is how do we relate to the guy or boy who is not you, who want's to dance, but is afraid to, or doesn't want to appear to present an image of himself that is contrary to his identity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Your comment to Brea about Sa'ad and Dina: I haven't seen the clip, etc, etc, so I can only comment in a general manner. I'm 99.9999% certain that Sa'ad comes across as a guy - not because he's trying to - but rather because he IS one. He's built like a guy, he therefore can only move like one.

This is the point exactly. The thing is Sa'ad has something that most non western guys do not. The experience of learning the dance in its cultural context and the experience of seeing it done by all types of guys. Therefore, the thought of having to LOOK masculine is an issue that never has to enter the picture, just as for women the thought of LOOKING feminine doesn't enter into the equation. The are who they are as men and women.

The problem that I see is with guys learning the dance outside of that context, who copy their female teachers point for point because they don't know any different and don't know how the dance should look on them. The guys who assume that they have to approximate a feminine image because they have never seen a regular guy either in a professional or social context. OR, the guy who IS an effeminate gay man who feels that he has to camp it up and throw it in everyones face as is the case of what often happens with the male dancers in Greece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

The guys that can move like gals - if their body structure allows it, why not? The point I'm trying (badly, no doubt) to make (I'm tired right now, off to a show and workshop in Seattle in the AM) is that each person MUST dance true to themselves! The rest of it doesn't matter. If the dancer is dancing from their heart and soul, I don't care what "gender" they appear to be! If they are dancing from their heart and soul, they CANNOT be a pastiche.

What I have seen is not guys who can move like girls. I don't think there is any such thing from a movement point of view. There aren't any movements that a man can't do that a woman can. It has to do with the other qualities, expression and body language. What I have seen in Egypt are guys who go out of their way to dance like what they THINK a woman should be. They even tie their shirts to appriximate a bra. Yes they werte effeminate gays, but that's really deside the point. The thing is whate they were doing was a pastiche. Its not the way real women act or move, but an exagerated caricature. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

If a person is legitimately transgender, they are who they are. If they are gay, they are who they are.

For instance, I have a student who is gay. The first time he danced at our student show case, he came out wearing a cut off top and a bedlah skirt with a hip scarf. Why did he do this? because he's Bulgarian and in Bulgaria a gay man is not considered a man. Part of him was attracted to the dance because he saw it as a way of expressing his sexuality and he felt that if he didn't camp it up, people would not know he was gay. He really wants people to know.

First of all what he was wearing made him look like crap because it did nothing to compliment the lines of his body. He was very resistant when I gave him costume advise, but after he tried it he agreed that I was right. He now has a few costumes that show him to his best advantage.

I did NOT try to butch him up. Why? Because that is NOT who he is. He's not a rugged jock, but he's not as fem as he perceived himself either. I told him not to worry about appearing gay. He is who he is and everyone who meets and sees him knows it. What I told him, is that he doesn't want to be that gay guys dancing, but that really good dancer....who happens to be gay. It's his talent that he should strive to speak for himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

If they're trying to conform to someone's idea of "masculinity" or "femininity" that is incompatible with their core being - it turns into a pastiche and looks fake as all get out.

Yes, but as I pointed out above, that pastiche can work the other way as well. A guy who feels that he has to camp it up or throw the fact that he's gay in everyone's face by being a caricature is just as much a pastiche as is Ank or Stefan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

I don't define my dancing as either masculine nor feminine - just as me (for better or worse). And I can only speak for myself - but I know fake when I see it, and so do you.

Yes I do, regardless if they are trying to play it "gay", or play it "straight". I myself have never "tried" to be masculine. My only teacher is a woman. I learned the basic vocabulary watching her. However, there were certain gestures and expressions that I avoided because I knew that they did not belong on me as a man and when I actually got the chance to see men dancing, my intuitions were confirmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

As for Greek dance - it underlines the arbitrariness of "Gender Roles" and "Societal expectations" - the men traditionally wear skirts!

I'm babbling, I'm off for bed...

The fact is that within the context of the Mediterranian world crotchless garments were the norm. However, you never see women wearing the men's fustanilla. Even though it's a skirt, It's a MEN'S skirt and I doubt that I'll see you wearing a womans vest and neclace in your Greek dance performances either. Like it or not, we all, in some way or another, conform to the societal standards we live in.

Brea · 03-05-2008, 05:24 PM

Hmmm...you know, Tarik, I do agree there on one point. There IS the issue of men fearing to look gay if they decide to take up bellydance. I think that can be an issue. Faking it is never a good thing...I think what I am trying to say is that I would not want someone to dance in a way that was false to them.

da Sage · 03-05-2008, 06:54 PM

I have class with a transgender or "sissy" student. She's genetically male, but is known to the class by a female name, and often wears feminine clothing. I really don't know what her sexual preferences are. Her movements are different than the genetically female dancers, but that may be a factor of skill, as much as body type and intentional styling.

Her dance IS very different from the other male dancers I have seen. I believe in masculine presentation of bellydance (and dances very closely related to bellydance, if you wish to split hairs), because I have seen it, and I liked what I saw. I've also seen not-particularly-masculine presentations. Then there are the somewhat feminine, and very feminine presentations...all done by men. I feel that all options are legitimately open to the dancer, but as an audience member, I'm entitled to my preferences and opinions.

The article takes exception to a male child being guided into feminine dance and presentation style (right down to the costume). I understand the author's point, and I agree that male dance students should be taught to dance with masculine presentation, because that is what they will need to get work. What isn't clear, is whether the student is truly being taught only feminine movement, or whether that just happened to be featured in that one performance which the writer saw.

Zorba · 03-06-2008, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

I myself have never "tried" to be masculine. My only teacher is a woman. I learned the basic vocabulary watching her. However, there were certain gestures and expressions that I avoided because I knew that they did not belong on me as a man and when I actually got the chance to see men dancing, my intuitions were confirmed.

You yourself have never tried to be masculine... That's why your dance is beautiful. That's exactly my point. The only thing above that I disagree with is that I've yet to see a gesture or expression that "doesn't belong on me". But as we've agreed before - you (Tarik) and I (Zorba) are 99.5% in agreement on these issues, we just have different views of a few details.

Quote:

Like it or not, we all, in some way or another, conform to the societal standards we live in.

I've never claimed differently - I just pick and choose. I take the best of BOTH worlds and discard the rest! Some "masculine" things make sense - like not shaving my legs - some "feminine" things make sense - like skirts. Blah, blah, blah...

03-05-2008, 04:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 857	A'isha: What do you mean by "legitimacy"? Its a loaded word, that is often meaningless in the ultimate sense. "If you want legitimacy, go to church". Clarification please... __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

03-05-2008, 04:58 PM	#15 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi, I agree with Zorba, but he and I are probably (most of the time) on the same page as against gendering. I think that the reason that particular man looked like a man is because, as Zorba says, he IS a man. I really think that's all there is to it. I also think it's false to try to stuff yourself into a kind of dance based on some gender construct...especially if, when you are in the joy of the dance, you dance in a way that denies that. I think people should just dance and love it as long as they are not doing improper movements that might hurt themselves. Secondly, I really have a hard time believing that this is the first time men have appeared on this scene. Certainly it's been several decades but I think that we can't say there were no male professional performers of this dance EVER. I think for equality to come in general we must accept both sexes in all things. The cycle must stop somewhere. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

03-05-2008, 05:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hmmm...you know, Tarik, I do agree there on one point. There IS the issue of men fearing to look gay if they decide to take up bellydance. I think that can be an issue. Faking it is never a good thing...I think what I am trying to say is that I would not want someone to dance in a way that was false to them. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

03-05-2008, 06:54 PM	#19 (permalink)
da Sage V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: MN Posts: 1,088	I have class with a transgender or "sissy" student. She's genetically male, but is known to the class by a female name, and often wears feminine clothing. I really don't know what her sexual preferences are. Her movements are different than the genetically female dancers, but that may be a factor of skill, as much as body type and intentional styling. Her dance IS very different from the other male dancers I have seen. I believe in masculine presentation of bellydance (and dances very closely related to bellydance, if you wish to split hairs), because I have seen it, and I liked what I saw. I've also seen not-particularly-masculine presentations. Then there are the somewhat feminine, and very feminine presentations...all done by men. I feel that all options are legitimately open to the dancer, but as an audience member, I'm entitled to my preferences and opinions. The article takes exception to a male child being guided into feminine dance and presentation style (right down to the costume). I understand the author's point, and I agree that male dance students should be taught to dance with masculine presentation, because that is what they will need to get work. What isn't clear, is whether the student is truly being taught only feminine movement, or whether that just happened to be featured in that one performance which the writer saw.