Sexism

Brea · 12-01-2007, 04:29 PM

Hi all,

I am a bus and truck driver for a living. I spend most of my days covered in diesel fuel and other bus and truck related fragrances. I can change my own brake pads and rotors as well as my own tires (which led to a rather amusing scene in Hawai'i when a nice man stopped to help us and found himself useless without a graceful way to exit). I can drive large vehicles through some amazingly tight spaces and I have no accidents or speeding tickets on my record. Yet day after day I hear the same old thing about 'women drivers' even from the mechanics at the shop. I also love muscle cars. I go to different car lots to look at them and the salesman immediately walks up to my boyfriend and speaks ONLY to him. I grew up fighting and cannot remember a day in my life when that was not the whole world to me. I spent seven years in juvenile prison for my efforts and to this day I have never lost a fight (this is not saying that I never will but I quit doing this about four years ago because frankly I like my freedom). In fact, most men have probably not met a deadlier woman. And yet I am treated like a complete moron, and even my father (who raised me this way, a barfighter himself with a very tough mother who liked to hunt and gut deer) has forgotten, due to his Lyme's Disease, that he wanted me to be this way and occasionally shouts that I'd be pretty if I wore some makeup.

So that is this girl's side of the story. I am an equalist. I don't believe there is a difference between sexes outside of the basic biology (Tab A, Slot B for instance). What I am curious about is something that A'isha mentioned on another thread. She says she wishes to address the habit of women who whoop at male dancers even if they are not that talented and are much more forgiving of their poor behavior onstage. This is not everyone, of course, but a select few. As an equalist I am very much a proponent of men being accepted in the dance as equals, just as I am a proponent of women being accepted as equals in jobs like mine. I feel, however, that this behavior is just another type of sexism (as in, ohhh look at the man dancing! we must encourage him!), much like men do when they find out I am a trucker. I wanted to make a separate thread for this issue so we could talk about this kind of behavior in an audience, and issues of sexism in general. Sexism can be rife on either side...it's odd that I see exactly the same kind of sexism from women towards men in the dance that I do from men because of my own job and personal history. Either men are banned entirely from the dance or they are let in but encouraged (in the whooping sense) as sex objects or as pets. What does everyone think?

-Brea Morgiane

cathy · 12-01-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

What I am curious about is something that A'isha mentioned on another thread. She says she wishes to address the habit of women who whoop at male dancers even if they are not that talented and are much more forgiving of their poor behavior onstage. This is not everyone, of course, but a select few. As an equalist I am very much a proponent of men being accepted in the dance as equals, just as I am a proponent of women being accepted as equals in jobs like mine. I feel, however, that this behavior is just another type of sexism (as in, ohhh look at the man dancing! we must encourage him!), much like men do when they find out I am a trucker. I wanted to make a separate thread for this issue so we could talk about this kind of behavior in an audience, and issues of sexism in general. Sexism can be rife on either side...it's odd that I see exactly the same kind of sexism from women towards men in the dance that I do from men because of my own job and personal history. Either men are banned entirely from the dance or they are let in but encouraged (in the whooping sense) as sex objects or as pets. What does everyone think?

-Brea Morgiane

I agree with you. I don't know why women in the dance community or audience treat male dancers differently or special because they are men. It bugs me. On a subtle level, even it is appreciation whoops, I feel like it's oppressive. It's saying they find it freakish and that freakishness is worthy of comment, even if that is positive comment. (A starker example would be dancing Little People--aka dwarves and midgets--I have seen this and the weird thing there was they were SEEKING that kind of attention for pay--like "look at me I'm a dancing dwarf!").

It reminds me of what Samuel Johnson said in his day: "Women ministers are like dogs walking on their hind legs. One does not expect to see it done well, but one is surprised to see it done at all." Sexism and a put-down at the same time.

I say true respect requires a level playing field. Cathy

Brea · 12-01-2007, 05:51 PM

Yes, I find that quite insulting! I think that is the real problem with accepting men as dancers (or women as fighters, truckers, intelligent beings, etc). People are very strange when it comes to prejudice; for instance, just because I drive for a living people assume I am an idiot. Suddenly they are shocked to see that the book I have been reading on my breaks is not some Harlequin romance (again with the female prejudice), but is in fact L'etranger...in French.

I have seen some spectacular male dancers that are very skilled...but I often wonder if this Chippendales treatment means that audiences look upon them as being similar to Dr Johnson's 'trained dogs'. This is disappointing, and I think there is definitely a problem with the issue that women suppose they cannot be sexist, just as, for instance, Hawaiians suppose they cannot be racist, since their comments are only directed at white people. True equality cannot happen with this kind of double standard!

-Brea Morgiane

Aisha Azar · 12-01-2007, 08:23 PM

Dear Cathy and Brea,
It does not seem to me as if most female dancers treat men like pets or like sex objects, as much as they defer to them and give them preferential treatment just because they are males. If they say something, for example, it is more important than when a female dancer says the same thing. I think it is quite unconscious for the most part. In most countries of the world, most women are just used to deferring to men in small ways, and I see this as having carried over into the Middle Eastern dance world. Many women will whoop and holler for a man where they would politely clap for a woman, or talk about how they just saw her underwear or some nonsense, where they do NOT do the same to men. I have seen women go up to a really not very good male dancer and fawn all over him as if he were fabulous, in the process convincing him that he was great. I see women put up with misogynist behavior from male teachers where they would let a woman have it. I can give examples to prove my point if need be.
I also think I need to be clear here, so that people do not think I am one of those man hating female dancers. I am not. I teach and coach male dancers, I attend workshops given by really great male dancers and I sponsor male dancers also. However, I do not give them preferential treatment just because they are males. Aziz, who studied with me, once told me that part of the reason he was such a recognized dancer had to do with him being male in a female business. He was also an excellent dancer and I could not really see his point at the time, but the more events I attend, the longer I am involved with dancers, and longer I participate on forums, the more I see of male and female dancers interacting, the better I see what he was saying.
Brea, thanks for moving this issue to its own thread. I think it is very important.
Regards,
A'isha

Brea · 12-01-2007, 08:36 PM

Hi A'isha- absolutely. I thought you might like to have it discussed further.

Of course you know that in my opinion there is no such thing as a male or female essenced anything, considering that first off defining the term 'essence' is difficult. That aside, my reactions to the whooping were usually along the lines of the Chippendales thing- women treating men as sex objects. I have never in my life deferred to anything male (it's lost me a lot of jobs and landed me behind bars more than once). I don't see it as deferring, I really see it as a pet that can do tricks or a sex object issue.

-Brea Morgiane

Aisha Azar · 12-01-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

Hi A'isha- absolutely. I thought you might like to have it discussed further.

Of course you know that in my opinion there is no such thing as a male or female essenced anything, considering that first off defining the term 'essence' is difficult. That aside, my reactions to the whooping were usually along the lines of the Chippendales thing- women treating men as sex objects. I have never in my life deferred to anything male (it's lost me a lot of jobs and landed me behind bars more than once). I don't see it as deferring, I really see it as a pet that can do tricks or a sex object issue.

-Brea Morgiane

Dear Brea,
There are many things that are difficult to define that are still very real. Essence is not difficult to define when we see it. This is in part WHY Lucy looks so Egyptian and Jillina does not!
I DO believe in male and female essenced things. We see it very strongly in the animal kingdom and I believe that human beings are animals. (We are classified as mammals because we suckle our young, just like cows, horses, deer, pigs, bats, whales, etc.) All creatures indulge in activities that are gender essenced, but that does not mean that people (and other animals, it turns out) do not occasionally find themselves attracted to doing something that is, in essence and spirit, of the other gender. I could get very specific about both human and animal activities that are gender essenced, but see no point to it in this conversation. BTW, I find fighting in the structured sense (war) to be male essenced in general, but not working on cars, driving truck, etc. I think everyone should read "The Naked Ape".
Regards,
A'isha

Brea · 12-02-2007, 12:52 AM

A'isha-

I understand where you are coming from; I just disagree. To most men driving is a guy thing, as is fixing cars or computers or several other things. I see both sexes doing both things that are considered 'male' or 'female'. Physical difference is the only one I see.

You don't think that there are times when women treat men as sex objects?

-Brea Morgiane

adiemus · 12-02-2007, 02:35 AM

Brea I think men and women can and do both do almost everything they can turn their hands to (except have and breastfeed babies). But when a man does something, something in his physique and essence (for want of a better word) infuses it with something 'masculine' whereas a woman may do exactly the same thing but infuse it with something essentially feminine. Perhaps I'm mainly thinking of physical activities eg hammering in a nail or running or even dancing.
When I see a man dance belly dance, his movements are exactly the same groups of muscles etc - but the way he does the movements feels totally different from a woman doing the exact same movement.
There are tendencies for men to have skills in certain areas that are less common in women, and vice versa (I remember we had a discussion about this some time ago) - psychologists show us that women do tend to be able to detect and respond to interpersonal behaviour more readily/easily than men, while men tend to have better spatial awareness than women. BUT there are always exceptions (I score very highly on spatial awareness compared with most women, and am on the upper end of spatial awareness in men also).
Having said this, the differences are not so much that there is no overlap, and not so much as to disqualify any woman setting out to do something that a man does, nor the opposite. And I totally agree that there should be no difference in access to do anything on the basis of gender, and neither should there be any difference in terms of the quality expected from either gender.

Here is a question: Why is it that when a woman does achieve something in a field like mechanics or sheep shearing, the media make a big deal that she is 'a woman'? surely if she's done well, she's done well - and her gender doesn't need to be mentioned. I say this as a woman living in a country with a female Prime Minister, female Speaker of the House, female Chief Justice, the past couple of Governer's General were women, our Head of State is Queen Elizabeth - need I go on?!

Oh and by the way I do sometimes treat men as sex objects - some of them are just delicious!!

Jahzara bint Hana · 12-02-2007, 04:06 AM

See, I believe that it's important to encourage/show support to someone who has the guts to go outside traditional gender roles. I may not treat that person any different than someone else, but I will say that I pay more attention because it's not commonplace. If I happen to cheer for a male dancer it is because he deserves it. I will cheer for the female dancer as well. I think the whole essence of women doing this on a whole is because by nature we're nurturers. We tend to find SOMETHING we can cheer for because we know how hard it is to get up there in the first place. Now, I for one will not cheer for someone who is horrible. I will say to them (if given the opportunity) that they were brave for getting up there and that's that. If I am in a position and possess the knowledge to give constructive criticism, I will ask if it is welcome and if it is, I will speak my piece, hoping they will take what I have said and learn from it.

Aisha Azar · 12-02-2007, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

A'isha-

I understand where you are coming from; I just disagree. To most men driving is a guy thing, as is fixing cars or computers or several other things. I see both sexes doing both things that are considered 'male' or 'female'. Physical difference is the only one I see.

You don't think that there are times when women treat men as sex objects?

-Brea Morgiane

Dear Brea,
My husband is a carpenter. He states, and science backs him up, that when he is partnered with a woman, his job becomes harder because he is actually physically stronger than her, even when the woman outweighs him, and must end up doing some of her work. It is not that men and women can not do the same things, but that they are better suited for some things than others. Actually, I know several truck driving women, and several that partner with their husbands. Your experiences might lead you to believe something that is not so universally. I believe that men and women are equal, but certainly not the same, nor would I want us to be.
Yes, I believe that women can treat men as sex objects, but I do not see that as the prevailing gender problem in Middle Eastern dance.
Regards,
A'isha

12-01-2007, 04:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Sexism Hi all, I am a bus and truck driver for a living. I spend most of my days covered in diesel fuel and other bus and truck related fragrances. I can change my own brake pads and rotors as well as my own tires (which led to a rather amusing scene in Hawai'i when a nice man stopped to help us and found himself useless without a graceful way to exit). I can drive large vehicles through some amazingly tight spaces and I have no accidents or speeding tickets on my record. Yet day after day I hear the same old thing about 'women drivers' even from the mechanics at the shop. I also love muscle cars. I go to different car lots to look at them and the salesman immediately walks up to my boyfriend and speaks ONLY to him. I grew up fighting and cannot remember a day in my life when that was not the whole world to me. I spent seven years in juvenile prison for my efforts and to this day I have never lost a fight (this is not saying that I never will but I quit doing this about four years ago because frankly I like my freedom). In fact, most men have probably not met a deadlier woman. And yet I am treated like a complete moron, and even my father (who raised me this way, a barfighter himself with a very tough mother who liked to hunt and gut deer) has forgotten, due to his Lyme's Disease, that he wanted me to be this way and occasionally shouts that I'd be pretty if I wore some makeup. So that is this girl's side of the story. I am an equalist. I don't believe there is a difference between sexes outside of the basic biology (Tab A, Slot B for instance). What I am curious about is something that A'isha mentioned on another thread. She says she wishes to address the habit of women who whoop at male dancers even if they are not that talented and are much more forgiving of their poor behavior onstage. This is not everyone, of course, but a select few. As an equalist I am very much a proponent of men being accepted in the dance as equals, just as I am a proponent of women being accepted as equals in jobs like mine. I feel, however, that this behavior is just another type of sexism (as in, ohhh look at the man dancing! we must encourage him!), much like men do when they find out I am a trucker. I wanted to make a separate thread for this issue so we could talk about this kind of behavior in an audience, and issues of sexism in general. Sexism can be rife on either side...it's odd that I see exactly the same kind of sexism from women towards men in the dance that I do from men because of my own job and personal history. Either men are banned entirely from the dance or they are let in but encouraged (in the whooping sense) as sex objects or as pets. What does everyone think? -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-01-2007, 05:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Yes, I find that quite insulting! I think that is the real problem with accepting men as dancers (or women as fighters, truckers, intelligent beings, etc). People are very strange when it comes to prejudice; for instance, just because I drive for a living people assume I am an idiot. Suddenly they are shocked to see that the book I have been reading on my breaks is not some Harlequin romance (again with the female prejudice), but is in fact L'etranger...in French. I have seen some spectacular male dancers that are very skilled...but I often wonder if this Chippendales treatment means that audiences look upon them as being similar to Dr Johnson's 'trained dogs'. This is disappointing, and I think there is definitely a problem with the issue that women suppose they cannot be sexist, just as, for instance, Hawaiians suppose they cannot be racist, since their comments are only directed at white people. True equality cannot happen with this kind of double standard! -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-01-2007, 08:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,462	Males, etc. Dear Cathy and Brea, It does not seem to me as if most female dancers treat men like pets or like sex objects, as much as they defer to them and give them preferential treatment just because they are males. If they say something, for example, it is more important than when a female dancer says the same thing. I think it is quite unconscious for the most part. In most countries of the world, most women are just used to deferring to men in small ways, and I see this as having carried over into the Middle Eastern dance world. Many women will whoop and holler for a man where they would politely clap for a woman, or talk about how they just saw her underwear or some nonsense, where they do NOT do the same to men. I have seen women go up to a really not very good male dancer and fawn all over him as if he were fabulous, in the process convincing him that he was great. I see women put up with misogynist behavior from male teachers where they would let a woman have it. I can give examples to prove my point if need be. I also think I need to be clear here, so that people do not think I am one of those man hating female dancers. I am not. I teach and coach male dancers, I attend workshops given by really great male dancers and I sponsor male dancers also. However, I do not give them preferential treatment just because they are males. Aziz, who studied with me, once told me that part of the reason he was such a recognized dancer had to do with him being male in a female business. He was also an excellent dancer and I could not really see his point at the time, but the more events I attend, the longer I am involved with dancers, and longer I participate on forums, the more I see of male and female dancers interacting, the better I see what he was saying. Brea, thanks for moving this issue to its own thread. I think it is very important. Regards, A'isha

12-01-2007, 08:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi A'isha- absolutely. I thought you might like to have it discussed further. Of course you know that in my opinion there is no such thing as a male or female essenced anything, considering that first off defining the term 'essence' is difficult. That aside, my reactions to the whooping were usually along the lines of the Chippendales thing- women treating men as sex objects. I have never in my life deferred to anything male (it's lost me a lot of jobs and landed me behind bars more than once). I don't see it as deferring, I really see it as a pet that can do tricks or a sex object issue. -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-02-2007, 12:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	A'isha- I understand where you are coming from; I just disagree. To most men driving is a guy thing, as is fixing cars or computers or several other things. I see both sexes doing both things that are considered 'male' or 'female'. Physical difference is the only one I see. You don't think that there are times when women treat men as sex objects? -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-02-2007, 02:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	Brea I think men and women can and do both do almost everything they can turn their hands to (except have and breastfeed babies). But when a man does something, something in his physique and essence (for want of a better word) infuses it with something 'masculine' whereas a woman may do exactly the same thing but infuse it with something essentially feminine. Perhaps I'm mainly thinking of physical activities eg hammering in a nail or running or even dancing. When I see a man dance belly dance, his movements are exactly the same groups of muscles etc - but the way he does the movements feels totally different from a woman doing the exact same movement. There are tendencies for men to have skills in certain areas that are less common in women, and vice versa (I remember we had a discussion about this some time ago) - psychologists show us that women do tend to be able to detect and respond to interpersonal behaviour more readily/easily than men, while men tend to have better spatial awareness than women. BUT there are always exceptions (I score very highly on spatial awareness compared with most women, and am on the upper end of spatial awareness in men also). Having said this, the differences are not so much that there is no overlap, and not so much as to disqualify any woman setting out to do something that a man does, nor the opposite. And I totally agree that there should be no difference in access to do anything on the basis of gender, and neither should there be any difference in terms of the quality expected from either gender. Here is a question: Why is it that when a woman does achieve something in a field like mechanics or sheep shearing, the media make a big deal that she is 'a woman'? surely if she's done well, she's done well - and her gender doesn't need to be mentioned. I say this as a woman living in a country with a female Prime Minister, female Speaker of the House, female Chief Justice, the past couple of Governer's General were women, our Head of State is Queen Elizabeth - need I go on?! Oh and by the way I do sometimes treat men as sex objects - some of them are just delicious!! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

12-02-2007, 04:06 AM	#9 (permalink)
Jahzara bint Hana Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: CT---born and bred Posts: 17	See, I believe that it's important to encourage/show support to someone who has the guts to go outside traditional gender roles. I may not treat that person any different than someone else, but I will say that I pay more attention because it's not commonplace. If I happen to cheer for a male dancer it is because he deserves it. I will cheer for the female dancer as well. I think the whole essence of women doing this on a whole is because by nature we're nurturers. We tend to find SOMETHING we can cheer for because we know how hard it is to get up there in the first place. Now, I for one will not cheer for someone who is horrible. I will say to them (if given the opportunity) that they were brave for getting up there and that's that. If I am in a position and possess the knowledge to give constructive criticism, I will ask if it is welcome and if it is, I will speak my piece, hoping they will take what I have said and learn from it. __________________ For I am the "Blessed Princess, Daughter of Peace"