Sexism - Page 3

Kharmine · 12-02-2007, 07:48 PM

I think part of the problem is that many Westerners don't know how they're supposed to behave at a belly dance performance. To show their enthusiasm and appreciation (even if the dancer isn't very good), they whoop and holler as if at any other kind of live performance, and if it's "sexy" it gets wilder.

I know that at some flamenco concerts I've attended, the audience has to be admonished not to clap along with the performers onstage because the performers are really providing accompaniment as part of the tradition.

I will definitely show encouragement for any belly dancer, male or female, who shows a real sympathy for the context of belly dancing, whatever the style, even if he or she is not that great. I've seen how even a small display of encouragement can really spur that dancer to greater heights.

But, yes, it should be an "appropriate" display of encouragement and appreciation -- so maybe we should think of ways we can let a well-meaning audience know what is suitable and what ain't.

Zorba · 12-03-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

I think part of the problem is that many Westerners don't know how they're supposed to behave at a belly dance performance. To show their enthusiasm and appreciation (even if the dancer isn't very good), they whoop and holler as if at any other kind of live performance, and if it's "sexy" it gets wilder.

Around here, the GP often acts like they're at the symphony! So my instructor teaches them how to zaghareet early on just so they have permission to "whoop it up". If the audience isn't clapping or whooping or yelling or something at least part of the time, it just doesn't feel very good to us dancers...

Brea · 12-04-2007, 05:28 AM

Hi Zorba,

I have been thinking about these occurences a lot and do wonder if it isn't just people having fun and making the dancer feel comfortable? Maybe it's not about men at all. I know I always feel much better when people have whooped and shouted for me!

-Brea Morgiane

Moon · 12-04-2007, 09:58 AM

Good point Brea and Zorba. However, at the event I was last month, the female dominated audience whooped 20x more for the male dancer than for the female dancers, so...

On the other hand, the male dancer was the first high level dancer after a few amature performances and he was doing a very energetic drum solo

Brea · 12-04-2007, 04:12 PM

Hmmm. It is hard to say. I do recall that one of my male students did a quite lukewarm job on his first performance...oddly the tech rehearsal the day before he was perfect but then in front of an audience he turned into a robot of some kind. Something about being the first male bellydancer on Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia probably. Anyway people did cheer him on a lot, even though he did quite poorly in my opinion (which I discussed with him at length after the show; it was just a student recital and it was their first time)

However, a great deal of the audience was comprised of lesbians so they were whooping and hollering at all the girls too, even if they did poorly. Maybe part of it is the novelty of seeing a man dancing, and also there is nothing else to compare him against. Perhaps audience members believe they are seeing the 'male version' of bellydance as I have seen advertised in many disreputable places. There's only one kind of this dance in my opinion.

Speaking of that- has anyone else noticed this with their male students? They will look fabulous at rehearsal but they just freeze up in front of the audience? This particular dancer was also an actor and singer so I can't imagine what else would have accounted for his stage fright aside from the fear that it might not look 'masculine' enough in a place where his girlfriend had once told him to 'man up and buy a truck'.

-Brea Morgiane

Zorba · 12-04-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

Speaking of that- has anyone else noticed this with their male students? They will look fabulous at rehearsal but they just freeze up in front of the audience? This particular dancer was also an actor and singer so I can't imagine what else would have accounted for his stage fright aside from the fear that it might not look 'masculine' enough in a place where his girlfriend had once told him to 'man up and buy a truck'.

-Brea Morgiane

I can relate. The first performance as a Belly Dancer is QUITE intimidating for us guys. I've been a performer all my life, both music and dance, and I was NEVER so terrified in my entire existence as I was when I did my first (troupe) performance.

We're not used to being sensual, and don't know how the audience is going to react. After a few performances all that goes away, but the first couple are sheer terror!

First Belly Dance Performance!

I've also seen similar reactions among many of the gals!

Brea · 12-04-2007, 05:58 PM

Hi Zorba,

Well this was a solo performance for this guy; we then did a troupe piece....but he was very aware of his position as 'first male dancer in CB', possibly in Nova Scotia in general. I think those thoughts were DEFINITELY going through his head at the time. It's not a place where men go outside of their gender norms all that often.

-Brea Morgiane

isabel · 12-04-2007, 07:17 PM

Hi- newby here, weighing in on the gender issue.

I took a few hip-hop classes last year where I was one of very few women in the class, and the only woman that exhibited a typically "feminine" appearance and style of movement, and had no experience with hip hop. I was pretty terrible. But when we had to take turns doing short solos at the end of the class, all the guys cheered me on to a degree that was NOT proportional to my skill at all! I knew I wasn't doing anything impressive, but their reaction made me relax more, dance more freely, and feel welcome in a male dominated class and style of dance. I got more out of it once I was convinced they truly wanted me to be in the class and to open up and dance without fear. Of course I was not performing at the time, and their encouragement was not sexual. Still, I felt that although it was more generous than the feedback they gave the guys, I needed it at first in order to feel welcome and comfortable.

Incidentally, I also grew up doing construction alongside my dad, camping and hiking, doing rough, non-girly stuff. I still enjoy doing those things, they remind me that I can be strong and physical and survive on my own capabilities. But as I got older, my feminine side re-emerged and I feel the nuances of my dance are feminine in essence, and that this comes from something deep inside, not something I learned from my upbringing. While I agree women should be allowed to do any activity that they can do well, I don't think that feminism should be about having the right to be more like a man. To me, that still says "feminine is not good enough." I want to be respected and taken seriously WITH my heels and skirt.

Brea · 12-05-2007, 04:14 AM

I'm not a feminist. I am an equalist. I think everyone should just be able to do whatever they want and not have to worry about a gender construct for everything. The dance you personally may do may have a 'feminine essence' for you, but that does not mean that this dance inherently has such a thing. Nor does anything, in my opinion, have a male or female 'essence', partially because I feel the word 'essence' to be rather flimsy.

-Brea Morgiane

Zorba · 12-05-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

I'm not a feminist. I am an equalist. I think everyone should just be able to do whatever they want and not have to worry about a gender construct for everything. The dance you personally may do may have a 'feminine essence' for you, but that does not mean that this dance inherently has such a thing. Nor does anything, in my opinion, have a male or female 'essence', partially because I feel the word 'essence' to be rather flimsy.

-Brea Morgiane

This should be framed and posted on every wall in the country!

Feminine-schmeminine. Masculine-smasculine! Its all relative. People generally perceive me as "masculine" - but if they perceive me as "feminine", so what? Who cares? Its *ME* in any event!

12-02-2007, 07:48 PM	#21 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	I think part of the problem is that many Westerners don't know how they're supposed to behave at a belly dance performance. To show their enthusiasm and appreciation (even if the dancer isn't very good), they whoop and holler as if at any other kind of live performance, and if it's "sexy" it gets wilder. I know that at some flamenco concerts I've attended, the audience has to be admonished not to clap along with the performers onstage because the performers are really providing accompaniment as part of the tradition. I will definitely show encouragement for any belly dancer, male or female, who shows a real sympathy for the context of belly dancing, whatever the style, even if he or she is not that great. I've seen how even a small display of encouragement can really spur that dancer to greater heights. But, yes, it should be an "appropriate" display of encouragement and appreciation -- so maybe we should think of ways we can let a well-meaning audience know what is suitable and what ain't. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

12-04-2007, 05:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi Zorba, I have been thinking about these occurences a lot and do wonder if it isn't just people having fun and making the dancer feel comfortable? Maybe it's not about men at all. I know I always feel much better when people have whooped and shouted for me! -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-04-2007, 04:12 PM	#25 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hmmm. It is hard to say. I do recall that one of my male students did a quite lukewarm job on his first performance...oddly the tech rehearsal the day before he was perfect but then in front of an audience he turned into a robot of some kind. Something about being the first male bellydancer on Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia probably. Anyway people did cheer him on a lot, even though he did quite poorly in my opinion (which I discussed with him at length after the show; it was just a student recital and it was their first time) However, a great deal of the audience was comprised of lesbians so they were whooping and hollering at all the girls too, even if they did poorly. Maybe part of it is the novelty of seeing a man dancing, and also there is nothing else to compare him against. Perhaps audience members believe they are seeing the 'male version' of bellydance as I have seen advertised in many disreputable places. There's only one kind of this dance in my opinion. Speaking of that- has anyone else noticed this with their male students? They will look fabulous at rehearsal but they just freeze up in front of the audience? This particular dancer was also an actor and singer so I can't imagine what else would have accounted for his stage fright aside from the fear that it might not look 'masculine' enough in a place where his girlfriend had once told him to 'man up and buy a truck'. -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-04-2007, 05:58 PM	#27 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi Zorba, Well this was a solo performance for this guy; we then did a troupe piece....but he was very aware of his position as 'first male dancer in CB', possibly in Nova Scotia in general. I think those thoughts were DEFINITELY going through his head at the time. It's not a place where men go outside of their gender norms all that often. -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-05-2007, 04:14 AM	#29 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I'm not a feminist. I am an equalist. I think everyone should just be able to do whatever they want and not have to worry about a gender construct for everything. The dance you personally may do may have a 'feminine essence' for you, but that does not mean that this dance inherently has such a thing. Nor does anything, in my opinion, have a male or female 'essence', partially because I feel the word 'essence' to be rather flimsy. -Brea Morgiane __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

12-04-2007, 09:58 AM	#24 (permalink)
Moon V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,627	Good point Brea and Zorba. However, at the event I was last month, the female dominated audience whooped 20x more for the male dancer than for the female dancers, so... On the other hand, the male dancer was the first high level dancer after a few amature performances and he was doing a very energetic drum solo

12-04-2007, 07:17 PM	#28 (permalink)
isabel Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6	Hi- newby here, weighing in on the gender issue. I took a few hip-hop classes last year where I was one of very few women in the class, and the only woman that exhibited a typically "feminine" appearance and style of movement, and had no experience with hip hop. I was pretty terrible. But when we had to take turns doing short solos at the end of the class, all the guys cheered me on to a degree that was NOT proportional to my skill at all! I knew I wasn't doing anything impressive, but their reaction made me relax more, dance more freely, and feel welcome in a male dominated class and style of dance. I got more out of it once I was convinced they truly wanted me to be in the class and to open up and dance without fear. Of course I was not performing at the time, and their encouragement was not sexual. Still, I felt that although it was more generous than the feedback they gave the guys, I needed it at first in order to feel welcome and comfortable. Incidentally, I also grew up doing construction alongside my dad, camping and hiking, doing rough, non-girly stuff. I still enjoy doing those things, they remind me that I can be strong and physical and survive on my own capabilities. But as I got older, my feminine side re-emerged and I feel the nuances of my dance are feminine in essence, and that this comes from something deep inside, not something I learned from my upbringing. While I agree women should be allowed to do any activity that they can do well, I don't think that feminism should be about having the right to be more like a man. To me, that still says "feminine is not good enough." I want to be respected and taken seriously WITH my heels and skirt.