cathy

Dear A'isha

I agree. Women in the dance community (or in any other community) should not defer to men just because they are men, or think what men say is more important just because a man has said it, or put up with misogynist behavior from teachers, male or female, or give men preferential treatment. I must be lucky because I haven't seen much of this personally (nor have I seen the men as pet or sex object treatment in the dance community that much personally!)

At the same time, I agree with Jahzara bint Hana that it can take courage to step outside prescribed gender roles, just as it takes courage in general to perform.

Cathy

Aisha Azar

Dear Cathy,
While it might take more courage, it is also a personal choice. No one forces anyone else to belly dance, whether male or female. I am not so impressed with the idea that a guy has to have a bit of extra courage to perform because I don't believe that it takes them any more courage to dance than it does us, once they have made the choice. In fact, I think some men very much like being a male in a female dominated workplace. Their reasons for liking it may vary from getting extra attention for being males, to having a lot of attractive women around, to feeling a sort of specialness in being rather unique, to being able to dominate women on some level ( I have seen this happen in workshops and backstage, and for that matter , on stage). There is a flip side where they have to take some trash, too, but then, so do female belly dancers. We all have to deal with the same thing when it comes to having courage to face naysayers.
By nature of who I am, I often step outside of prescribed gender roles and do the "manly" thing. I do not feel that it takes courage as much as it does conviction.
Regards,
A'isha

cathy

Dear A'isha,

Good points. I wonder how many men in the field have joined it for one of the reasons you mention, as opposed to simply falling in love with the music and the dance form, as I would hope would be the reason for most (female and male). This harkens to all the ego reasons for wanting to perform, which may be completely unrelated to this particular music & dance.

Isn't there a famous quote something about "having the courage of one's convictions"?

Regards, Cathy

Brea

As far as such things as carpentry...I was raised differently. From early childhood on I was expected to do things as well and as fast as a man, from fighting to building to moving extremely heavy furniture. I do them all, and aside from my father's occasional shouting about makeup he is proud of his two daughters for their strength and abilities. Therefore, if I can do it...other women can too. I'm sorry but I don't buy statistics or science. I believe my own life experience and what I have seen with my own eyes. This may be the case for others as well, and if they have never seen women like me then I cannot blame them for buying into science-supported sexism. It's not a matter of sex to me. It's a matter of WHAT woman or WHAT man is doing it, if that makes sense. However, we can argue about this until judgment day, and I am obviously not going to change anyone's minds, nor are they going to change mine on this particular topic. So that's all I'll say on that.

So back to the initial subject. If we all are aware of the 'whooping' that goes on for men, is there a way to curb it? We ought to look for solutions to the problem as well as reasons why it is done.

-Brea Morgiane

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Jahzara bint Hana

I agree. The way I've been raised and what I have chosen to do in my professional life (one of my jobs is being host of my own sports talk radio show) has shown me that it does take courage to step outside "the norm". Even with dancing whether male or female. While no one has forced me to dance, I have been challenged with educating those who think and believe that this is a "nasty woman's dance" a "hoochie coochie girl's rhythm" or even a "dance of paganism". Especially more so since my mother is a minister (a often male occupation).

As to whether or not there's a way to curb the whooping? I don't believe there is, largely because to cheer someone on is a personal decision. Something the dancer has done may have touched a spot with that individual, it may have reminded them of something or someone. I believe if we take it upon our own selves to be cognizant of our own reasoning for whooping BEFORE we "whoop it up", there may be somewhat of a change. But that will take each person being responsible for themselves.

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For I am the "Blessed Princess, Daughter of Peace"

Brea

And I am not one to advocate absolute silence...the thing is I have been to many shows where I heard women being 'whooped' by other women; I have even been whooped at! So perhaps it is not as insidious as we may think; maybe people just really like the dancing. I personally have never noticed anyone 'deferring' to men in belly dance circles...I think the major issue is letting men into belly dance circles at all. So many women forbid them.

-Brea Morgiane

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www.breamorgiane.com

Aisha Azar

Dear Brea,
It is not a matter of how one is raised. I come from a family where the genders are equal, too, but that does not mean our strengths are the same. I live with a man who occasionally gets partnered with women in his field, which is carpentry. He does heavy construction. I trust his word on this. He has no reason to lie. My husband weighs 140 lbs. on a day with heavy gravity and often works with women who outweigh him. I also take the word of scientists who make it a habit to study males and females and their physical/neurological/ psychological and other differences. I can move heavy furniture, too, but at a far greater cost physically than men, because their upper body strength gives them a leverage that I do not have. Hopefully, your father and you will become aware of and respect such differences. They are there not only in the rest of the animal kingdom, but in humans, too.
Women who ignore them for too long end up with all kinds of physical problems they might have avoided if they were only willing to admit that some things are better done by men, just as there are some things better done by women. ( For example, women make better welders as a general rule!!)
Regards,
A'isha

Brea

I understand what you are saying A'isha, but my father, grandfather, and uncles also don't have reason to lie or to act this way. I have lived up to every expectation they had of me in that sense. My grandmother is also very strong and spent most of her life doing these things. If your family raises you from childhood to be like that, I think things are different, and because of that I will have to argue with these scientists who claim it is biology but I think it is more of a cultural leaning. I'd say the exact same goes for men. If these women were trained, as I was, since early childhood to fight and lift weights, the statistics would be much different...lies, damn lies, and statistics is about right. Likewise, if men were encouraged to behave in more traditionally 'female' ways I think you would come out with the same situation. Physical weight doesn't have anything to do with it. It's about how you were brought up...if the women your husband works with are slow, it's because they are slow, not because they are women. That's the point I am trying to make.

The thing is, as I said, we can argue about it forever but neither of us are going to come to an agreement or change the other's mind, as we are both strong willed.

-Brea Morgiane

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www.breamorgiane.com

lizaj

I suppose women doing "male" jobs doesn't surprise me that much as my very petite biology teacher w...aa....y.. back then had driven very large lorries during the war, my mum-in-law worked in munitions and my aunt drove and serviced tractors in the Land Army.
Women pilots delivered planes , knowing that if they came across an enemy, they were not armed to defend themselves and so were in more danger than fighter pilots

Conversely my nephew was delivered by one of UK's first male midwives.

The Soviet army in WW2 had many women who were armed.
In the Peninsular war of the late 18th and early 19th century, the original Spanish "Guerillas" fighting against the French were often women. Often women have been "underground" fighters and therefore in a perilous position as they have no unform.
And most women, backed into a corner with their children will fight tooth and nail..instinct demands it!

adiemus

It's a shame that science gets slated - science is simply repeated observations like those of you and I, but with controls to ensure the observations aren't skewed by things that can vary and influence what you as an individual see.
Because we all bring our own biases into observations - and opportunities - then we run the risk of only seeing what we have eyes to see.

It isn't just that girls are raised differently from boys that sees men being (generally) more able to lift heavy things, while women tend to have better verbal skills. Just go and measure a man's arm length and shoulder width, it's usually bigger than most women's - this biomechanically advantages them for certain activities, and like it or not, women's hips tend to be wider than a man's, with our femurs tending to slope inwards towards the knees, giving us a slightly knock-kneed stance. This means (along with lower muscle mass and higher fat layers) women are not usually as able to run as fast as men.

But this doesn't mean that women shouldn't have the opportunity to do what men do, and vice versa. Nor for us to make a song and dance about a woman or man achieving in a field that many don't.

Regarding dance - I whoop and holler at a gorgeous man dancing in the same way I would whoop and holler at a gorgeous woman dancing. It's about their stage presence, ability to dance and communication with the audience. To me it's part of being a performer to enthuse the audience so much that they want to show their enjoyment! But of course I'm thinking of the male and female revues... as I haven't yet seen a man dance live bellydance (only recordings).

I am not doubting that you have had some opportunities to develop in so-called nontraditional ways Brea, but I don't think that it's just your upbringing that has contributed to your abilities now. It is probable that you have some advantages genetically that also contribute - perhaps your family has genetically endowed you this way. Great stuff! But to extrapolate from you and your family to the wider population is not only simplistic, it ignores the repeated observations of people over time. And I'm not prepared to argue the toss over whether 'science' is 'believable' or not! Just take a look at Olympic records - even though some of the women's world records are now at the same mark as men's were 10 years ago, men's records are still faster, longer and heavier than women's today. And that is given both sexes have the same training from a very young age...

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He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)