Jamil is not a real Bellydancer - Page 7

chryssanthi sahar · 06-07-2008, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

Did you mean you fear that won't overthrow the female regime or you know they will?

Neither nor. I thought that my English is good enough for making clear statements, but probably I have to try harder

What I was trying to say is that I am not afraid of men in general and also not of men in the belly dance community, because I know that they will never overthrow the female regime in belly dance. It is like in boxing, but the other way round: even if female boxing has become more popular than it used to be some years ago, boxing is and will always be a basically male sport. Belly dance is a basically female dance and even if male belly dancing has become quite popular and there are quite some guys out there who dance fantastic, belly dance will always be dominated by women, there is no question about that. Therefore I see no reason for getting hysterical if some of our brothers in dance try to perform a show on their own once a while.

chryssanthi sahar · 06-07-2008, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

One thing I though about though. Do you think the reason so many of the male dancers are so flamboyantly gay is in reaction to what Stavros talks about? Do you think for them its a kind of political/social statement against the right wing mentality?

It could be, but I don't think that this is the main reason. I think the main reason is that quite some guys who like to dance just happen to be gay

. But I must say that nowadays most of the professional Greek male belly dancers are not flamboyantly gay (and if they are, they don't show it). Neither Kayammer nor Malek nor Alexandros dance in a gay way and until now I've only met one male dancer in Greece (who was a bad dancer anyway), who was obviously gay (I forgot his name

). O.k., Stavros himself is a confessing gay and he doesn't hide it when he is dancing. Maybe it is his way to react against right wing mentality, but I wouldn't generalize it.

lizaj · 06-07-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

Neither nor. I thought that my English is good enough for making clear statements, but probably I have to try harder

What I was trying to say is that I am not afraid of men in general and also not of men in the belly dance community, because I know that they will never overthrow the female regime in belly dance. It is like in boxing, but the other way round: even if female boxing has become more popular than it used to be some years ago, boxing is and will always be a basically male sport. Belly dance is a basically female dance and even if male belly dancing has become quite popular and there are quite some guys out there who dance fantastic, belly dance will always be dominated by women, there is no question about that. Therefore I see no reason for getting hysterical if some of our brothers in dance try to perform a show on their own once a while.

I bet your German and Greek is a lot better than mine

I always feel so cheeky having to question someone's English when I have ...like 2 words of their language!

Thanks for that and yes why shouldn't they put on an all male show!? It would have an appeal all of it's own .

Caroline_afifi · 06-07-2008, 09:51 AM

I am kind of exporing all these issues in another thread but in relation to women.

Do you think that some men use this dance primarily as a vehicle to express themselves sexually or to play out buried issues?

I am not saying that they dont love the moves, music or culture, just that other issues are the primary driving force (or are at least prersented that way)?

I hear this being echoed through out various threads which is why I have raised it (in relation to both men and women).

Maria_Aya · 06-07-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

As about youtube and Tsifteteli: honey, do as much research as you want, you won't find much except my videos and the videos of my students. My fellow country people are kind of lazy, they don't put Tsifteteli videos on youtube (except some silly ones)

Well some are not lazy lol
On 30 May we did a show dedicated to Smyrnh (Ismir) and Konstantinoupoli (Istanbul) and old greek tsiftetelia songs, we coworked with the association of Minor Asia of Heliopolis and had a fantastic show with big attentance and also we are booked to do the same show from fall in 3 different associations in Athens...
Just I havent got time to upload anything yet still on rehearshals for new show

kisses

Aisha Azar · 06-07-2008, 12:51 PM

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I am kind of exporing all these issues in another thread but in relation to women.
Do you think that some men use this dance primarily as a vehicle to express themselves sexually or to play out buried issues?

I think men do not do this any more often than women do, meaning that many people who get into the dance on a superficial level do so for the reason of acting out sexually or for the ego boost. Good dancers of both genders understand that that there HAS to be a place where it is about the dance and not just them doing an ego feed.

Quote:

I am not saying that they dont love the moves, music or culture, just that other issues are the primary driving force (or are at least prersented that way)?

I am not sure I understand this statement. Can you elaborate and maybe give an example?

Quote:

I hear this being echoed through out various threads which is why I have raised it (in relation to both men and women).

I think that if we look at any person who does a great job of what they are doing, has a hidden driving force. It really depends on the psychological health of that force. All of us need to have egos to do what we do. It is the unhealthy ego that causes the problem in how the dance is presented. When a person is too full of themselves to care about the nature of the dance, its meaning, purpose, essence, soul, then is when we see a negative driving force. Many women and men grow up in the dance enough to get past themselves, but many do not. I think it is not a gender based issue, but an ego based one.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan · 06-07-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

Neither nor. I thought that my English is good enough for making clear statements, but probably I have to try harder

What I was trying to say is that I am not afraid of men in general and also not of men in the belly dance community, because I know that they will never overthrow the female regime in belly dance. It is like in boxing, but the other way round: even if female boxing has become more popular than it used to be some years ago, boxing is and will always be a basically male sport. Belly dance is a basically female dance and even if male belly dancing has become quite popular and there are quite some guys out there who dance fantastic, belly dance will always be dominated by women, there is no question about that. Therefore I see no reason for getting hysterical if some of our brothers in dance try to perform a show on their own once a while.

Such is the case with dance in general. All you have to do is look through any dance wear catalogue or go to a store like Capezio's to see this. Out of the whole store there is only one tiny corner for men's wear. I think part of the reason is the whole change in mentality that occurred during the turn of the 19th century. Before that time men of culture were expected to know how to dance and be graceful, but with the rejection of anything that had a hint of aristocratic values, that changed. Sports became the primary outlet for male energy and more and more of them were invented during this time.
Therefore, with so many activities available to them and the attitude that dancing was soft and not rugged, sports became the favored playtime activity of most men.

I remember in collage my Palestinian friends had a great Debke group called Al Watan. Even that was female dominated because they had such a hard time getting guys to commit to the group and even when they pressured them into it as an expression of cultural pride, most of them could not dance and had to be taught. This is why I never really learned Debke, none of the guys I know neither Palestinian nor Lebanese could dance.

Tarik Sultan · 06-07-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

It could be, but I don't think that this is the main reason. I think the main reason is that quite some guys who like to dance just happen to be gay

. But I must say that nowadays most of the professional Greek male belly dancers are not flamboyantly gay (and if they are, they don't show it). Neither Kayammer nor Malek nor Alexandros dance in a gay way and until now I've only met one male dancer in Greece (who was a bad dancer anyway), who was obviously gay (I forgot his name

). O.k., Stavros himself is a confessing gay and he doesn't hide it when he is dancing. Maybe it is his way to react against right wing mentality, but I wouldn't generalize it.

I'm glad to know things are getting better than they were a few years ago. Every time I saw a picture of a Greek guy they were topless and wearing a woman's chiffon skirt and worse of all they couldn't dance a lick! Like this guy:

Just looks weird.

Tarik Sultan · 06-07-2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I am kind of exporing all these issues in another thread but in relation to women.

Do you think that some men use this dance primarily as a vehicle to express themselves sexually or to play out buried issues?

I am not saying that they dont love the moves, music or culture, just that other issues are the primary driving force (or are at least prersented that way)?

I hear this being echoed through out various threads which is why I have raised it (in relation to both men and women).

I think there's always going to be some of that. We've seen many women who are acting out something other than artistic motivations on stage. As more men become involved in it we are going to see the same percentage from them as well.

One thing I have noticed is that the feminine guys are usually the first ones to get out there. I personally think that its because they have nothing to lose. Most guys are afraid of doing anything that is outside of the norm for fear of being labeled a sissy. Therefore, not only straight guys, but most gay guys as well stay away from anything they think will give them a weak image or label them a queen. An effeminate guy has nothing to lose so ironically they do not have this fear, nor the need to present an image that conforms to societies expectations of masculinity. I can certainly see how
this could be a statement of empowerment for them. I guess its much the same with over weight women who do not fit the cultural ideal of a desirable figure wearing and performing in bedlah, which was originally designed to display a feminine ideal of an hourglass figure. It's their way of asserting and celebrating themselves. And then there are just those folks of both sexes who are exhibitionists and just want attention. Not everyone comes to the dance for the same reasons.

cathy · 06-07-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

We've seen many women who are acting out something other than artistic motivations on stage. As more men become involved in it we are going to see the same percentage from them as well.

And then there are just those folks of both sexes who are exhibitionists and just want attention. Not everyone comes to the dance for the same reasons.

Totally agree with all you said but especially these bits! Cathy

06-07-2008, 09:51 AM	#64 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,285	I am kind of exporing all these issues in another thread but in relation to women. Do you think that some men use this dance primarily as a vehicle to express themselves sexually or to play out buried issues? I am not saying that they dont love the moves, music or culture, just that other issues are the primary driving force (or are at least prersented that way)? I hear this being echoed through out various threads which is why I have raised it (in relation to both men and women).