Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
I would assume that I would be as welcome to comment as anyone else on the thread, my name coming into it or not. You often do not make clear whether or not you mean street dance, which in effect is not belly dance, or actual belly dance, which is a stage entertainment, or theatrical or authentic folkloric. I have asked you before to please clarify and so if I get confused by what you say, please be willing to take at least 50% of the responsibility. In fact we agree, even in theatrical representations of the dances, men often do move their hips. Her teacher actually said something more along the lines of men don't move their hips like women do, which I find to be an anatomically correct statement. Since I do not intend to get into a long thing with you on Christmas Eve let me say
"Merry Christmas to all (especially that good looking Tarik dude) and to all a good night!!~"
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

I haven't heard anyone teaching goddess theory. I don't even mind the theater folk stuff as long as they are honest about what it is. Mahmoud Reda is the originater of this style, however, he has always been honest about what he does and never makes things up, like the guy with his Zar story. In every workshop I've seen him in he states clearly that what he does is not folk dance as found in the villages, but tableau based on the idea of those dances and communities. Its the lack of input from the Middleeastern community that is responsible for so much misunderstanding about the dance, which is why I am so angered when a person from that culture disceminates misinformation.

I'm willing to bet that Moondancer's teacher's comment ws meant in a certain context because there is no way that an Egyptyian could not know that men also dance with their hips.

P.S. Did you get my p.m?

Tarik Sultan

Dear A'isha:

I'd be willing to accept part of the blame, but in this instance, I'm innocent, innocent I TELL YOU!!!! You didn't fully read her comment, and so my response to it was not clear. However, you should know me enough by now and from all of my articles, that its my position that one has to make a distinction between the social dance as versus the professional dance. This has always been my position since I wrote my fiorst article way back when, when I used the term Oriental dance for both. This was before I was aware of the term Baladi, so I differentiated by saying amature Oriental Dance and professional Oriental Dance.

For the record, this is the exact statement Moondancer made that prompted my response.

Moondancer: People keep insisting that male belly dance is part of Middle Eastern culture but I think they mistake traditional Middle Eastern folk dances for "belly dance". My teacher who is Egyptian has shown us some of the moves that men do when dancing to oriental music. They involve canes and a lot of shoulder and leg movement but NEVER the hips and the belly.


Now the both us us know that this is not true. Men and women do infact use the same movements women do when dancing socially, even to Oriental music. Further more, previous to this statement she claimed that these movements, if done by a man, will give him a feminine shape. Perhaps I should have addressed that one, but why bother now. I hope you now understand what was said on both sides and the context within which I responded.

And if you wake up tonight to find a fat guy in your living room, SHOOT HIM, IT AI'NT SANTA! Oh, but save me the cookies, I'll save you some Jamaican black cake, and I won't even put any poison on youir piece, promise!

Brea

Tarik-

Yes, I did get your pm; sorry I have been away for Christmas!!

Re: the goddess theory. Being around the bellydance community on the Big Island of Hawai'i...that is ALL they teach. I know that it is not the end of the 'divine feminine' as being the reason for the dance. I was just mentioning it because for me, that inaccuracy in its history is what sticks in my craw the most.

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Tarik Sultan

Perhaps if you make the Hula analogy people will get it. The Hula if I remember correctly was dedicated to Pele a female deity, however, you wouldn't consider Hula a woman's dance. At one time that was the perception, and a certain style of dance was created to entertain the tourists based on that perception, but the roots of the dance are much deeper. Just as people once misperceived Hula as a fertility ritual, so too is Oriental Dance perceived the same way and forr the same reasons. Perhaps if you explain it that way they will get it. Also, like elsewhere in the world, the fact that people just learn the dance without any input or experience with the native population means that more often than not, the dance is being done ouside of its cultural context, therefore the fantasy and speculation as to its origins.

Brea

Hi Tarik,

Oddly, at least as I understand it (which is not very well, so don't quote me) hula was a dance performed by both sexes from the very beginning. There is a goddess of the dance (Hi'iaka) but it is unrelated...some hulas were for gods and goddesses but a great deal of them just tell stories about everyday life. Much like folk songs I suppose. The hula was the way the Hawaiians told the story of their history. The people I am referring to in regards to the dance are usually not even Hawaiian, but hippies that live there, and the problem is the obsession with the goddess theory, which holds no water historically as far as I am aware.

Unrelatedly, I am homesick now.

I feel that debates can happen on this forum without someone 'laughing' at the comments or instruction another person offers (this to Moondancer). One cannot learn anything that way. I have discovered many amazing things from visiting this forum.

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Tarik Sultan

This is my point exactly. Even if it was a dance dedicated to this or that Goddess, it wouldn't exclude men as they worship the same goddesses as well. However, there were people who mistakenly made the assumptions about Hula as they do our dance.

There were some people who tought it was some sort of fertility ritual when in fact the real thing was so much deeper and complex than their fantasy, same as is true with our dance.

I see, so I take it they are even disconnected from the Hawaiian culture, therefore they wouldn't even get the comparison. It sucks, but I've come to realize that there are people who don't want anything but the fantasy they have convinced themselves is real. I guess it some how gives them a sense of empowerment. However, I've seen things change. More and more people are becoming educated about the culture because the cap between us over hee and the countries of origin is getting smaller, so, just keep doing your thing.

Brea

Yes, I have noticed a tendency for people to just believe what they want to with complete disregard for history simply because the fantasy appeals. Again, I have as much difficulty as a Scottish historian with this problem as I do as a dancer. How I ended up involved in the two things where the goddess fantasy is highly prevalent I don't exactly know.

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Haifa1978

I have oriental dance as an art of form and not as a circus performance.I didn't like what I saw.