Tarik Sultan

What I'm trying to say is that the general public is a lot more unforgiving of men than they are of women who project an air of shyness. Its unfair and sucks but true. There are people out there who look to cut any man down who is doing something they perceive as gender inappropriate. As I said, It happens to me all the time and I'm not feminine at all. I just do not agree with your opinion that unless a man is projecting an air of femininity he is not doing the dance correctly. On this point I strongly disagree and always will.

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
Did you see that young man as feminine? I did not. I think you are confusing the feminine essence of the dance with males acting in a feminine way. The essence of the dance is feminine. In fact, there were aspects of his dance that were quite masculine, but he did not consider his manhood at stake while he was dancing and was able to relax and work with the feminine energy of the dance form in such a way that a trained dancer could see he really understands the dance emotionally, whether or not he has the world's best technique as of yet. Feminine essence does not mean that a man must dance with a girlish air. Please go back to the newbie thread and see what I said about feminine essence.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

I do see his carriage as having a slightly feminine edge. As for the feminine essence of the dance, we will never agree on this point. A woman is feminine because that is her nature period.

I just saw Sad il Sughir this sunday in concert. He dances very well. He can be fluid and gracefull and also very sensual, but he projects a very masculine attuitde and feeling, not in an agressive confrontational way, but just naturally. He is extreemly comfortable in his skin and in touch with his sensuality and unapolagetic about it. He can do the moves just as sensually as any woman, but his male energy is present and undeniable.

I don't see anything wrong with a woman being feminine in her approach to the dance, but to suggest that a man canot do the dance properly unless he also projects a feminine vibe is not true, nor is your opinion that it would not be Raks Sharki if being performed on stage.

Badia created Raks Sharki for women, no argument. A big part of that was expressing feminine beauty again no argument. She never created a version for men because there was no demand for it again, no argument.

MEn have now begun to create our own verion of Raks Sharki. I resent the assertion that what we have created is not Raks Sharki, because it is. We have the talent, we want to dance, but we want to express our unique male qualities. Although there are many men in the dance who are effeminate, they do not represent us as a whole and I resent being told that they "get it" while those of us who are not effeminate don't. We do not want to be effeminate because that is not who we are, its not in our nature to be so, nor do we want to be androgenous, for the same reason. We want to be ourselves, men. Since no one created a version of the dance for us, we have each had to create it for ourselves. Jamil, Amir, Jim Boz, Tito and
I, to name a few, have all had to independently figure out how to project our own identities in the dance because we've had no role models.

We have had to experiment and are still experimenting with costuming to figure out what compliments our body structures, while not compromising our identity as males. I resent and always will, anyone telling us that we are putting on airs, "machoing up", while at the same time complimenting effeminate and androgenous dancers, whith staements like "they get it", tthier not afriad to look like a belly dancer". To me that's just a load of crap. Why should I feel appologetic for being a man? Why should I have to supress my nature in order to express an energy and vibe that is alien to my being? This is a form of discrimination and I will never accept nor agree with it. If a person is effeminate, androgenoys...well that's who they are and fine. But don't ever suggest in any way that what I or any other man does, is inauthentic and not Raks Sharki because we do not express a feminine energy. Its that simple.

LET A WOMAN BE A WOMAN AND A MAN BE A MAN! Period!

Aisha Azar

Tarik,
Since you clearly have no idea of what I am talking about, I see no reason to continue talking to you about it. If you did,you would realize that feminine essence in the dance has nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR masculinity or anyone else's. The dance exists with its own personality, feeling, meaning outside your ego or mine, outside us as men or women. Go ahead and resent whatever you want, deny whatever you want, etc. Since you will make no effort to see what I am saying, I am not going to waste my breath on trying to explain it to you.
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Well I told you that I don't agree and never will, so what do you expect?!

Aisha Azar

Tarik,
That would be sort of me like me saying I agree or disagree with Steven Hawking's ideas about a contracting universe. Since I do not understand it, I have no concept with which to agree or disagree. What I would expect is that you would open your mind enough to at least TRY to see what I am saying before disagreeing or agreeing. (rolls eyes).
A'isha

Zorba

Since I may have inadvertently contributed to your angst (some of the snippets above sound like me), let me attempt to clarify what I mean (for better or worse):

I *NEVER* suggest ANYONE should EVER dance as anything but THEMSELVES - including you!

BUT...

(I've taken the position, and I'm sticking with it, that...)"Masculine" and "feminine" are artificial, societal constructs. A'isha and I agree that our dance has a certain "quality" or "essence". She calls it "feminine", I do not. Regardless, when I see a guy dancing in a herky-jerky style, or using "macho" poses, or angular arm positions - I do call that "macho-ing it up". I don't think you dance that way...

As for "looking like a Belly Dancer" - that's what I, and the GP (General Public) expect, regardless of gender. Differences between male and female dress are, for the most part, artificial - SOMEONE MADE THIS STUFF UP! Only when you're talking biology/anatomy (read: Bra) are these differences real.

Belly Dance was created, regardless of what version of history you or I might choose, to show off the human body to its best advantage. So-called "differences" between so-called "masculine" and "feminine" dancing exist only in the mind - they're not REAL. The bedleh was created to show off the body - why would I want to cover mine up? The world is full enough of rulebooks as it is (see Ankh's site, he has more rules than the supreme court).

At the end of the day, it is my sincere feeling that you, I, and A'isha aren't that far apart - I think we're really splitting hairs here. We're not going to agree with everything the others say, but we're really not that far off either, methinks. I feel like I agree with 99.5% of what you (Tarik) says, and about 95.9% of what A'isha says. I write these long rambling posts that probably make no sense to anyone (including myself) in a sincere attempt for the curious to understand me, and where I'm coming from. It is not my intention, nor desire, to upset or offend anyone - so if I have, please accept my humble apologies.

We all have our very personal visions of what we feel this dance is, should be, and our individual places within it - how could we not? We're all passionate artists here...

For the record, my vision is very simple: I seek beauty. "Masculine" beauty is a concept that has been forgotten in recent centuries - males can be beautiful too (see my post about Goths). The idea the beauty is restricted to females is absurd.

I had had enough of "BE A MAN!" by the time I was 16 years old - neither then, nor now, has anyone been able to tell me what that really means. I've heard all the relativistic cultural-based and ultimately meaningless definitions and rules on the subject - but I only want to deal in absolutes. Finding absolutes is a VERY hard thing to do - but they are the only thing that is REAL. Everything else, I feel free to put my own interpretation onto (as should you and everyone) - "follow your bliss" and all that rot.

As a local TV anchorman concluded at the end of his human interest story about me on the local news: "Zorba isn't trying to be a man..., nor a woman..., just himself". One of the most succinct and wise ways of saying something that it takes me 5 kilobytes to express!

Again Tarik, if I've offended you, I apologize (Same goes to A'isha). {BOW HERE} I think we all are passionate advocates of our visions, let's not forget we all love this dance (however we may view it), and remember that comments made are NOT personal, only philosophical observations!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Maria_Aya

Total agree with you Zorba, in the concept of oriental dance.
And this beauty is what I see in Anastasios dance, that is rare to see today.
And also a dance quality for a dancer that is 22 years old, have studied mostly from videos from old egyptian dancers (and with some very good teachers), started just to travel to learn more (and working 14 hours per day to collect money for this), and seek also the art in the dance we all love.

And this is a rarity, in the bellydance world we live, where we see among and around us many BIG names, that dont even reach in dance his small finger.

And agreing with Aisha, I just would love to see him 5 years from now, since every 3-4 months that we meet he is an evolved dancer and always surprise me with a good way.

Maria Aya

Aisha Azar

Dear Zorba,
You never offend me because you never make it about ME!! As always, you approach us with grace and intelligence and do not stoop to getting nasty about character and personality. I LOVE this about you.
Even animals build societies and they all have their own rules, just as humans have done. This is not artificial, it is necessary in order for creatures to live together. It is as hardwired into most of us as breathing and sleeping. I do disagree with you about the differences between make and female essence being all in the mind, (unless of course you are referring to how the neurologists and others are finding that men and women are indeed different in their brain patterns, etc!!). There are differences in the general way that men and women approach life. Re the dance, many people seem to think that "feminine essence" in the dance means that men will have to dance like women to do the dance well; that is not what is meant here at all, but turning the dance into a showcase for masculine traits is not where its at. Tarik states that this is something that men are in the process of doing, I note he does not state that this is how the dance IS but how some men would change it to be. Why? If I want to dance Ardah or Takhtib, do I need to be mindful of its masculine qualities and its spirit and essence? If I want to continue to be dancing Ardah, I certainly do. Everyone seems to agree that Masabni created the dance with this feminine essence in mind, but then we all seem to fly off in different directions and most of them do not seem to care a damn about what her goals and concepts of the dance were and what is STILL the essence in countries of origin.The dance will eventually be lost if we do not honor that and clarify what is being done on stage. I believe that men have been dancing belly dance for nearly as long as women, in less public venues because of the taboos against it in countries of origin. These men were not necessarily gay, but the people who wanted to see them perform were interested in seeing men perform the dance for various reasons. We can look at Flaubert and his buddy Max and see them looking at male dancers in Egypt pre-belly dance and see that males dancing has fascination for males who are not gay as well, (though I admit we do not know the extent of Flaubert's sexual experimentation). The dance has its own spirit. That spirit is feminine. Men need to address that when they dance and they don't have to come off as excessively feminine to do so.
BTW- The concept of masculine beauty is NOT lost on most women and gay guys!!
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

I think the guy has a lot of potential and I'm looking ast him not so much where he is now, but to what he can be in the future, a really dynamic exciting performer that will make the world take notice and take everyones breath away, instead of, "oh that was nice". Like I said, I wish that I had had enough people who could have been honest enough to tell me where I was lacking, because it took me many more years than it should have to figure it out myself.