KuteNurse

That is exactly what I have been taught. Pelvis tucked slightly...chest raised up, shoulder's back slightly and relaxed. Knees soft...slightly bent. You are teaching correctly Brea.

Reen.Blom

I see it as elongated lower back rather than pelvis tucke forward....

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Brea

Yes, I think perhaps it's the way you say it. I was always very invested in teaching correct posture. I can post the thread from Bhuz so you can read it. Thanks for the tips, Sedonia; I will keep that in mind! I want the best for my students.

Here is the thread from Bhuz:

Review of Hadia’s Teacher Training Levels I & II: Feb/Mar 2008, Montreal, QC - BELLYDANCE CENTRAL - Everything Belly Dance! Welcome to BHUZ - Biggest Online BellyDance Community

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Suheir

Hmm. This is from a skating website: "All skaters should try to achieve good posture and stance, but what is it and how should you try to achieve it. We often talk about 'poor' or 'good style'; this often also refers to what we call good posture.

The first thing to be aware of is that your back line is strong and upright but not stiff. This often is achieved not by thinking about your back but by concentrating on your stomach strength. You should stand straight and tall, then tighten you buttocks and slightly lift your pelvis, while pulling your navel into your spine. This creates what I call 'core strength' and allows you to maintain your centre, while still being able to move, lean or rotate. You should also ensure that your shoulders are relaxed and rotated down in their sockets, so that you can feel the muscles of your back pulling the shoulder blades down towards the centre of the back, the head should held erect and with the greatest possible space between the ear and the shoulder"

And: The pointe of good posture - Telegraph

I'd say they were both advocating "neutral" pelvis.

Aniseteph

I read that Bhuz thread - what's with flat foot mayas being evil! And whatever that tick-tock hips thing is? (?Soheir Zaki down hips? - we call them chonks which is so inelegant I can barely bring myself to write it..).

We've been learning a dance that has a section of just those moves - OMG am I trashing my spine here? Nothing hurts. The down hips move with a neutral pelvis on me doesn't seem to do much to my spine at all, it stays pointing straight down. I think if my pelvis is at all tilted back it turns into a bit of a tail wag which does feel like it might mess with the lower spine, same for mayas.

Aargh, flippin' internet-induced paranoia.

sedoniaraqs

The original person these comments were attributed to is Hadia, a dancer who is quite knowledgeable about biokinetics and the human body. Please keep in mind that we are hearing her thoughts on these matters third hand, and we don't know exactly what she said, or exactly what movements she was referring to. If you read carefully, you will see that Hadia was apparently demonstrating different techniques for producing these movements that are better than some other ways people do them.

I have not had classes with her, so I can't say whether my "down hip" technique is what she would label the "good" way or the "bad" way.

Also keep in mind that no one has the body awareness to feel with perfect accuracy what is "bad" for our bodies vs. "good". There are, in fact, movements, exercises, and stretches that do not necessarily produce pain, but that are known (through research) to produce slow, progressive damage to ligaments, tendons, and joints over time (apparently many ballet stretches done at the bar are included in this category, yet the ballet community is resistant to changing their pedagogy).

Yes, dance puts wear and tear on our bodies. But, if there are ways of doing what we want to do that reduce or mitigate wear and tear on our bodies, shouldn't we be open to learning about this?

Brea

Oh, I am completely open to learning about it! That's the thought I had.."oh no, what if I haven't been doing this right all this time!" I am always open to learning new things.

I am currently involved in the Health and Wellness center in my university; I am hoping that I will learn more about kinesiology while I am here.

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Aniseteph

Oh yes, I agree. As someone who has often felt that a hipscarf-clad full-size model skeleton in the class would be a great help in demonstrating what should move and how, and why posture is so important, I am right on-side on this one.

I wasn't criticising (especially as it is all at least second hand info), I just think I had the same "eek am I doing it all wrong?" moment as Brea.

sedoniaraqs

To me, this is quintessential oriental dance posture:


Quite a few of my early teachers taught something that I think came from west coast tribal. Instead of standing tall with the upper body leading most movement, the teachers looked more like they were leaning back on their heels with the knees visibly bent like they are about to sit on a stool. I think this is what Hadia was criticizing.

For example the photo below shows a "before" and "after/corrected" posture. I would say the "after/corrected" is too bent at the knee, and notice how the dancer is leaning back. Probably all her weight is on her heels, and her rib cage is not slightly forward of the pelvis. Perhaps this is considered "ideal" for tribal belly dance (?) or vintage oriental/ am-cab whatever you want to call it, but it is most certainly not ideal for Egyptian dance. This would have Yousri sharif or Shareen el Safy whacking your butt with a paddle (figuratively speaking) and telling you to stand up straight.
Posture Before and After - tribe.net

adiemus

"There are, in fact, movements, exercises, and stretches that do not necessarily produce pain, but that are known (through research) to produce slow, progressive damage to ligaments, tendons, and joints over time"
ummm.... sorry but I really have to jump in - joint degeneration particularly in the spine occurs more as a result of genetics than physical demands. If you have the genetics for degeneration, and carry out physical activity you will notice it more than if you are sedentary, if you don't have the genetics and do activities you will be unlikely to develop problems unless you have a major joint disruption which occurs mainly as a result of forceful trauma. The notion that we can develop unnoticed deterioration of our bodies is a fallacy, unless you think grey hair and wrinkles are 'damage'!
For references: Sutton, AJ et al. (2001) A case controlled study between low and moderate levels of physical activity and osteoarthritis of the knee. Annals of Rheumatic Diseases (60), 756-764
This study demonstrated that there was no relationship between physical activity (comparable with bellydance) and knee OA.
Cymet TC. Sinkov V. Does long-distance running cause osteoarthritis?. [Review] [32 refs] [Journal Article. Review] Journal of the American Osteopathic Association. 106(6):342-5, 2006 Jun.
This study found that although radiological changes are found in long distance runners, report of pain does not increase and running may provide joint protection.
alichman L. Hunter DJ. Lumbar facet joint osteoarthritis: a review. [Review] [131 refs] [Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't. Review] Seminars in Arthritis & Rheumatism. 37(2):69-80, 2007 Oct.
This study found that increased age, osteoarthritis in the body generally, and congenital (born with) changes to the facet joint orientation were predictive of facet joint OA, but not related to exercise level.
acobsen S. Sonne-Holm S. Rovsing H. Monrad H. Gebuhr P. Degenerative lumbar spondylolisthesis: an epidemiological perspective: the Copenhagen Osteoarthritis Study. [Comparative Study. Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't] Spine. 32(1):120-5, 2007 Jan 1.
BMI longitudinally and at index evaluations, age, and angle of lordosis were significantly associated with degenerative spondylolisthesis in women. In men, no individual risk factors for degenerative spondylolisthesis were found, save increased age.

I could go on, but there are so many it gets a bit hard to cut and paste them all.

But if you are interested, this article is written specifically about performing artists: Hansen PA. Reed K. Common musculoskeletal problems in the performing artist. [Review] [27 refs] [Journal Article. Review] Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation Clinics of North America. 17(4):789-801, 2006 Nov.

The upshot is, activity and movement are healthy, acute pain is a good sign to stop and think about what you're doing, but not always an indication of injury, you can blame your parents for your osteoarthritis (and your age!), and unless you and your body encounter a hard surface with significant impact as in trauma, you'll probably be fine.

'Good' posture is the starting point for movement - so 'good' posture is one that is dynamic, able to change depending on the movement requirements, is flexible, is biomechanically efficient, and for which you are fit enough to maintain. For our dance type, soft knees, neutral pelvis, elongated spine, rib cage in neutral and normal, balanced spinal curves seems to be the most efficient.

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